***Match Ratings v Norwich***

[stemark44]

On the replay Adebayor looked even more offside to start with I thought, and checked himself. Didn't he ? It was certainly closer than Walker got to actually finding one all night.

I'm really not seeing that performance as outstanding by Walker. Gave the ball away an enormous amount, defended well when asked a couple of times - is this exceptional ? - and didn't put a single meaningful pass or ball into the box despite having half of Carrow Road to himself.

Unfortunately Adebayor has picked up where Defoe left off...........statistically he has been caught offside more than any other player this season.

 

[Mr Pink]

On the replay Adebayor looked even more offside to start with I thought, and checked himself. Didn't he ? It was certainly closer than Walker got to actually finding one all night.

I'm really not seeing that performance as outstanding by Walker. Gave the ball away an enormous amount, defended well when asked a couple of times - is this exceptional ? - and didn't put a single meaningful pass or ball into the box despite having half of Carrow Road to himself.

BC I'm watching the game again on Sky plus, there is at least two quality crosses into the box first half, one was fantastic...on a plate for Ade, but there was a brillant defensive header to deny him a sure headed goal.

Havn;t got to to the Ade offside yet...but it looked to me at the time that Benny hesitated for a split second before delivering that ball as I noticed Ade pointing to the space before moving...at that point he was onside I thought.

I thought Walker was excellent though, the few times they were down our right he defended very well and at the end of the day it denied them getting crosses in to attack which is their threat for sure.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think the manager felt that Rose might actually produce a few decent crosses.He was wrong, it didn't happen.
Even though I don't think Ekotto was very good tonight,I actually thought the manager should have taken a few of our more important players off when we went up 2-0.
Bale,Modric and VDV should have been replaced with Kranjcar,Livermore and Pav.
We can't keep asking the same players to carry our season all the time,we need to rotate.

I'm not one of Ekotto's biggest fans, but games like tonight where we are dominating the ball I find he's very conducive to that ball retention. He's very comfortable on the ball in tight spots I was actually enjoying his performance tonight - possibly because I wasn't watching him do much defending.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I'm not one of Ekotto's biggest fans, but games like tonight where we are dominating the ball I find he's very conducive to that ball retention. He's very comfortable on the ball in tight spots I was actually enjoying his performance tonight - possibly because I wasn't watching him do much defending.

I thought he had a very shaky spell in the first half-positionally speaking. Around the 15-25 min mark.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC I'm watching the game again on Sky plus, there is at least two quality crosses into the box first half, one was fantastic...on a plate for Ade, but there was a brillant defensive header to deny him a sure headed goal.

Havn;t got to to the Ade offside yet...but it looked to me at the time that Benny hesitated for a split second before delivering that ball as I noticed Ade pointing to the space before moving...at that point he was onside I thought.

I thought Walker was excellent though, the few times they were down our right he defended very well and at the end of the day it denied them getting crosses in to attack which is their threat for sure.

I remember Walker making two or three tackles where he used his pace. That's good, but isn't that the least we should expect ? I mean he wasn't quite so efficient defensively last week when he was up against better players was he ?

It's good putting in a couple of dangerous looking crosses but again, he did have acres of space to do it and I repeat, he didn't actually make a single one count all night. Period. And he did also give the ball away a frighteningly high amount of times. I'm not saying he was poor or bad, just not spectacular.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I thought he had a very shaky spell in the first half-positionally speaking. Around the 15-25 min mark.

I think as a team something went during that period didn't it ? It was their only real spell.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I think as a team something went during that period didn't it ? It was their only real spell.

I'm looking forward to watching the game again but I thought we had a bit of a wobble around that time. They worked the flanks and got a lot of balls into our box.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I'm looking forward to watching the game again but I thought we had a bit of a wobble around that time. They worked the flanks and got a lot of balls into our box.

I think it was because we as a team dropped collectively too deep, and brought their 2 lumps up top into play with balls into the box.

At least when we've dropped deep recently the whole team has done so, whereas last season the defence dropped deep and the midfield and attack where miles upfield leaving a vast chasm in between. Some people called that 'open', I just thought it was fucking reckless.

All in all, today I thought we were pretty much spot on.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I think it was because we as a team dropped collectively too deep, and brought their 2 lumps up top into play with balls into the box.

I think you might be right. I also felt our pressing became a bit lackadaisical.

 

[Legend10]

How anybody can grumble about that and complain about any individual involved from our side is beyond me.

We made the beautiful game look as simple as ABC and I must have been on a different planet somewhere when we were looking vulnerable, aside a couple of crosses from their right halfway through the first half Friedel could have sat and leaned up against the post talking to his mates like it was a sunday morning pub game.

Away from home in the premiership that was a performance of total domination from a team packed full of quality players. We aren't weak anywhere, all this baloney about Walker is frankly embarrassing, I would wager there's not a single manager in the Premiership who wouldn't take him in a heartbeat! Yes he may get in poor defensive positions on occasions (because he's still inexperienced) but Jesus does he get himself out of them! How many goals and points has he cost us this season again with his limited ability?

As for Modric, how anybody could find fault with that 90 minutes I just have no idea! The way he dictates the tempo and the play is just fantastic!

As far as open games go, I hope that we have another one at Swansea on Saturday because frankly we'll out football just about anybody in this league and have been apart from the first 2 games all season.

Maybe Shankly meant "by people who think they know better".

Shankly said:
"Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better."

 

[leffe186]

I remember Walker making two or three tackles where he used his pace. That's good, but isn't that the least we should expect ? I mean he wasn't quite so efficient defensively last week when he was up against better players was he ?

It's good putting in a couple of dangerous looking crosses but again, he did have acres of space to do it and I repeat, he didn't actually make a single one count all night. Period. And he did also give the ball away a frighteningly high amount of times. I'm not saying he was poor or bad, just not spectacular.

I'm going to be a bit dull here and half-heartedly defend Walker. I reckon he had more crossing opportunities than Ekotto, and that accounted for a fair bit of his lost possessions. I also vaguely felt that he generally had less options when receiving the ball - I suspect that Bale, VDV and Modric all drift marginally left on average, and he certainly seemed to be more advanced than Ekotto, by-and-large. Still, I agree that he has a lot to learn. The good thing about the "tackles" he made, though, was that he usually stayed on his feet and shepherded the player or the ball. I thought he did that pretty well.

I did get frustrated with the number of times that Walker seemed to have limited options in the middle. Sure, he hit a couple of terribly wasteful shots, but on quite a few occasions you could see him looking to hit a cross but not enough people making the clever move to get on the end of it. The one issue with the formation we have - at least, with how it was working in the first half - is that the threesome behind Ade don't always attack the box with him. Often Ade himself is late, which isn't much help. The one thing you could say about VDV playing alongside Crouch is that he was often closer to the goal, looking for the knockdowns.

I think it was telling that we saw Bale in advanced positions for the two goals, albeit in completely different circumstances. I suspect that, deliberately or not, he was holding back a little first half, then 'arry got him to push on just that bit more in the second. Voila, more options.

My reaction when Ekotto went off was simply that 'arry wanted to give him a rest. Did you see how obviously Norwich were targeting him in the first 10-15 minutes? I said before the game that I would have been tempted to play Bassong. I love that we still have that option for the last half an hour or so, if things aren't going our way. We just need a penetrative, fast forward to bring on at the same time, which Defoe kinda does, but others might do oh so better.

I'm glad Kranjcar came on in a straight(ish) swap for VDV. Is that the first time he's done this? I was happy with his touch, hope he can build up some fitness because I suspect we're going to need him sooner rather than later.

 

[leffe186]

How anybody can grumble about that and complain about any individual involved from our side is beyond me.

We made the beautiful game look as simple as ABC and I must have been on a different planet somewhere when we were looking vulnerable, aside a couple of crosses from their right halfway through the first half Friedel could have sat and leaned up against the post talking to his mates like it was a sunday morning pub game.

Away from home in the premiership that was a performance of total domination from a team packed full of quality players. We aren't weak anywhere, all this baloney about Walker is frankly embarrassing, I would wager there's not a single manager in the Premiership who wouldn't take him in a heartbeat! Yes he may get in poor defensive positions on occasions (because he's still inexperienced) but Jesus does he get himself out of them! How many goals and points has he cost us this season again with his limited ability?

As for Modric, how anybody could find fault with that 90 minutes I just have no idea! The way he dictates the tempo and the play is just fantastic!

As far as open games go, I hope that we have another one at Swansea on Saturday because frankly we'll out football just about anybody in this league and have been apart from the first 2 games all season.

Maybe Shankly meant "by people who think they know better".

Shankly said:
"Football is a simple game made complicated by people who should know better."

Honestly man, I get it, but was there not an extended period of time when you worried a little about whether we were going to score? I fully expected them to score eventually from one of the crosses that Friedel has no interest in.

I've already said that that was such a cracking, professional performance that I still am not sure how to react to them. Yet only a fool wouldn't see things we could have improved upon. I aspire to perfection. I realise I'm not going to get it, but there's nothing wrong in discussing possible ways to get closer.

 

[Legend10]

Defensively neither Ekotto or Walker really had too much to do, and ultimately neither of them actually played a killer ball or cross (although Ekotto did only for SAdebayor to have strayed stupidly offside before slotting it home) and though both saw similar amounts of the ball, Ekotto was far more proficient with it, Walker actually gave the ball away 26 times. That's more than Defoe will see it in three games. Ekotto only gave it away 10.

When he's not defending Ekotto is very comfortable on the ball and gets involved in the little interchanges.

I thought he was having a good game tonight, but either way, don't really understand the logic of replacing him with Rose.

And how many of those 26 were crosses, shots or clearances because he certainly never gave it away 26 times whilst in possesion?

Basically if he puts in a cross and it's cleared for a corner he will have given the ball away, or when Gallas gives him a bad pass and he tries desperately to keep it in which he does and a Norwich player nicks it because he's out of control he's given the ball away, or he gets on the end of a cross and has a shot he's given the ball away?

Great chalkboard stats them, really useful way to judge a performance BC.

As for BAE he's played in most games this season including the Europa league, so it would seem perfectly logical to give him a breather in a game as under control as this.

 

[Legend10]

Honestly man, I get it,I fully expected them to score even but was there not an extended period of time when you worried a little about whether we were going to score? tually from one of the crosses that Friedel has no interest in.

I've already said that that was such a cracking, professional performance that I still am not sure how to react to them. Yet only a fool wouldn't see things we could have improved upon. I aspire to perfection. I realise I'm not going to get it, but there's nothing wrong in discussing possible ways to get closer.

In all honesty no!

I don't think Norwich would have scored if we were still playing now and if they did it would have had to have been a worldy, and in all honesty we looked like we would score at any moment. So no, I thought it was a great performance and this team is close to being a great team!

I'm sure in other Premiership years we would have enough points going in to the new yr top of the league. We are just very unlucky to be competing with City as we could give Utd a real run for their money!

As for perfection, there are areas that Barcelona could improve, but their 11 shirts are worn by human beings!

 

[spursandbarca]

friedel 7- nothing to do

walker 8- got forward. 2 bad shots

gallas 7- solid

kaboul7- ditto. 1 mauareding run

assou ekotto 8- overlapped. got crosses in

modric 8-pulled the strings.

parker 8-tackled worked and ran

sandro 8- quality

bale 9- 1 tap in. 1 brilliant goal. pace and workrate.

adebayor 8-goal disallowed. held up ball well

rafa 7- set up one isnt fit.


subs
kranjcar inc-late sub

rose 6- slotted in fine

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Benny is a good player but not a great player.

It would be preferable to have a great left back if we can find one.

Again he had a Chelsea Sturridge type moment in this game but got away with it cos it was Norwich. Plus it was first half before we got on the scoreboard.

I dont quite get why a full time footballer cannot have faults eradicated. Just show him the videos.

Yes he is one of the best in the Prem but we need a better Benny.

 

[Damian99]

It's good putting in a couple of dangerous looking crosses but again, he did have acres of space to do it and I repeat, he didn't actually make a single one count all night.

That's also down to the forward/s, who if the cross is a good one, should be getting on the end of them, it's not always the fault of the provider.

 

[MrWoolley]

Friedel - 7

Walker - 8
Gallas - 7
Kaboul - 8
BAE - 7

Parker - 7
Sandro - 8
Modric - 8
Bale - 9
VDV - 7

Adebayor - 8

-------------------------

Even the players I rated 7, I thought were fantastic. Not one player had a poor game last night, and it was a real quality team performance. Bale was outstanding.

 

[Gilzeanking]

What a match from our point of view ! Deffo more than a hint of glory there .
To think that only a mere 8 months ago..no goals by halftime could have resulted in the dressing room instruction to.... lump it up to Crouchie.
( a tactic annoyingly effective vs us for Stoke btw)

Anyway , no ,we relied on footballing skill to penetrate Norwich, proper football . Love it .

Coupla small points re the discussion here . I belong to the camp that thinks the stunned Walker fans seeing Roberto Carlos are way over excited . He did OK but MoM is plain silly Walker 6.5

Ade's workrate is great . As someone said we are used to very lazy forwards so maybe we value this quality very highly in a forward . His touch , bar the fab assist is not quite there yet .When he runs in on a one on one with the keeper I've stopped expecting him to score . Ade 7

Dunno why theres surprise at Rose coming on . We were going to win...time to give gametime to those who need it .Harry gets blame for not rotating ( and from me for not using his bench)..here he gives gametime in a safe(ish) environment..more blame !

I will stick pins in my eyeballs if Sandro is dropped for Hudd . Sandro has been agitating over lack of matchtime recently .Quite fucking right too .What a player . Sandro 8.5 .

Harry should take any available opportunities to rest Parker atm .

Great game from Mods .Don't remember him ever playing better for us than this season Mods 8.5

 

[sloth]

Aaaaarrgghhhhhhh!!!!!! Can we please stop talking about the fucking FBs!?! The whole team played well and turn this into a debate about the FB's is fucking dull!

Anyway, first thing, all hail Harry :bowdown::bowdown: !!! Ok his hand was forced somewhat by who he had available, but M&S style, he didn't just play 4-2-3-1 he played the right kind of 4-2-3-1!

I read post after post pre-match going on about balance when what they meant was a dull kind of symmetry. Even 4-4-2 doesn't have to be symmetrical; see the way we used to play with Lennon on the right, backed by sitting FB and Modric on the left over-lapped by Bale. In fact asymmetry can be a wonderful, even balanced, thing. Symmetry gave you the First World War, asymmetry is what won the reputations of everyone from Scipio Africanus, to Napoleon Bonapart.

Balance on the other hand is about having a team who can play well with and without the ball, it's about being able to go wide or or through the centre, long or short.

Yesterday we had the best balance I've seen this season between the team on the ball and the team off the ball, and I'm glad to say that it was in a good way and not a bad one.

Ok, it wasn't perfect, at times in the first half we looked a bit anxious, like we we trying to make things happen rather than do the simple thing and let things happen as they inevitably would. I also thought our FBs were a bit wasteful in attacking situations, and we were a bit too congested in the centre at times, where our licence to be fluid resulted in everyone wanting to get on the ball in the same areas. But let's give it time, this is a new way of playing for most and as the game progressed there were signs of them starting to not only get to grips, but to really flow with it.

One thing to emphasise, just as sometimes when we go away from home and don't do well in a 4-4-2 and people are wrong to say "Oh well, it's just the players didn't perform well enough; nothing to do with the formation!", so people are wrong to think our formation yesterday had nothing to do with inducing a poor performance out of Norwich.

For most of the match yesterday they literally had no where to breath. Every long ball heaved forward had a Kaboul/Sandro sandwich on their lumps of strikers, with Gallas sweeping up the pieces.

Not once were we caught on the break, we always had the spare man.

How man times did Sandro make his opposite man pause only for a Parker or Modric to come back and nip the ball off his toes? How often were we exposed on right or left channel despite our FBs spending so much time in the opposition half? Not often, I wonder why?

As dozens of us have been banging on for a season it seems, playing two CMs who can tackle means you have more possession further up the field.

All of which is not to say we must always play 4-2-3-1 in every situation from now on. It's another string to our bow, we have a squad of capable players all of whom need game-time, and different line-ups and formations will better suit different opponents and circumstances. When Lennon and Defoe are back fit it really will be a case of horses for courses.

Finally, here's a short bit from the Telegraph interviewing Redknapp after the match:

"...Bale, swiftly moving in from the left, became ever more influential, marauding through the middle and finishing the game on the right flank. “I played him in a fluid three tonight rather than stick him out on the wing,’’ added Redknapp.
“Sometimes he can be stood out on the wing and people get tight to him and it’s difficult to get him in the game. In the middle, he can be difficult to pick up. When he turns and runs like he did, he’s unstoppable. He’s unplayable. Even against Chelsea I freed him up more late in the game and he slotted in Ade.”

And BC also reports Harry said something along the lines of:

"Q: How many positions did Gareth Bale play tonight ?

HR: Yeah...I basically gave Gareth and Rafa free roles tonight, and said whoever's nearest to defend that channel and if they couldn't get over there one of the others (Modric, Parker, Sandro) will shuffle across.
"

I said before the match:

Anyway, due to the injuries the team (if not where VdV and Modric play) picks itself:

Friedel
Walker Kaboul Gallas BAE
Parker Sandro
VdV Modric Bale
Ade​

I know BC and others think VdV must play in the centre, but I think that is to miss the point about the essential strength of 4-2-3-1.

People don't want to play VdV on the right because he offers limited cover to his FB when we don't have the ball. He can tackle, but he's not very good at it and he isn't very disciplined, most importantly he doesn't track very well.

But neither does Modric.

4-2-3-1 does not (always) employ traditional wide-men however. It more typically relies on the FB to provide width.

As with all things this is not set in stone and as we see on the left hand side we do have a player comfortable going down the outside, backed by a FB who is not your archetypal over-lapping full-back (though he will do it). It should be noted there's nothing wrong with playing a player happy going wide on one side and a player happier going narrow on the other; I think people sometimes mistake symmetry for balance!

Anyway, back to the VdV point. In a 4-2-3-1 your three AMs behind the striker should seek to get a rotation going. We don't want them in the more rigid style you get with a 4-4-2. VdV comes inside, Modric or Bale go wide. Always moving. Always rotating. Difficult to pick up. Include Adebayor in that equation too.

Of course the issue is who takes up what position when you don't have the ball.

Typically VdV will go right, Modric central and Bale left.*

However if we lose the ball and players are rotated out of their normal position then whoever is closest covers the relevant flank.

But what happens if players can't get across or like VdV, Modric and Bale, sometimes don't track?

Well that's precisely why you have two, high energy, good tacklers at the base of your midfield. They are your insurance which allows that front four to play so fluidly. We have sacrificed one of the attacking players you get in a 4-4-2 so that the additional defence capable CM frees up the four you have left to play in a more fluid fashion.

BC and others suggest that VdV is wasted on the flank because he's not disciplined enough when we don't have the ball, but is too restricted when we do.

I think you can't have it both ways, either he's disciplined and not getting in scoring positions because he's a slave to his flank, or he's not disciplined enough, is a liability when we don't have the ball because he's spending all his time getting into scoring positions.

Of course in the case of VdV it will always be a case of the latter than the former, which is why the best formation to get the most out of him is the one which allows him a free'ish role; the 4-2-3-1.

*Of course, usually the play is going down one side or another and so the player on the other flank will come in towards the centre as will the FB, the CM move out towards the flank down which they're attacking.