Match Ratings vs Chelsea

[Bus-Conductor]

I have to come down on the side of L10 on this. I don't think the mistakes should be used as a stick to beat Gallas with as some are doing but,

1) the header should've been cleared by Walker and he should've been screaming at Bill and everyone else that is was his ball BUT Gallas despite trying to do the right thing got under the ball and looped it back in between the posts. It's a misjudgement on his part, most times he would've got away with it, but it's a fact that the ball should've been helped on it's way and out of the box diagonally towards the touchline.

2) the 2nd goal - the cross should go back the way it's come. He's trying to do the right thing again by clearing the ball up pitch but it's risky and he scuffed it - he took the chance and made a mess of the clearance. Again the ball's pushed out between the posts which makes the finish more likely. If it goes back the way it's come the danger is minimal even if he scuffs it. I can see what he's trying to do, keeping the ball in play and launching it up towards Defoe but it's a mistake.

3) Can't blame him at all for the 3rd - Caulker in part hands Torres over and Hazards pass to Torres falls on a plate for Mata who should've been picked up by Livermore/Walker. If Caulker's tighter to Torres then maybe Gallas can step across but his position was about right considering Caulker's.

None of this should detract from our squad deficiencies as has already been discussed to death on here. I think Chelsea are overrated, weak defensively both as a back 4 and as a team and they lack the guts, strength and character of previous teams they've had in recent years. They also miss Drogba massively - for all their possession 1st half they created very little once they reached the edge of the box and Bale and Dembele would've seen the balance tipped our way without doubt. Lloris and Adebayor need to play and we need some brains and guile to play off him in January. I think we're stronger defensively as a team than last season but considerably weaker creatively and although we won't lose loads we'll draw more than last season.

Oh and Chelsea won't win the league - I'll give £50 to the site if they do.

But that was pretty much what I said Steve. I'm not arguing that they ended up poor clearances, the words I used were earnest mistakes I think. It wasn't his intention in either case to put the ball where he did, he just tried to clear the ball as best he could. Deal with the phase of danger in front of him.

I don't agree that he should have glanced it (first one) I've watched it back tonight and the ball comes from a high trajectory and he has to jump to get it, very hard to direct a backwards glance with enough power, and there were two Chelsea players waiting behind him if he gets it wrong.

It would be one thing to say they were honest mistakes, another to make more of it than that and as you say use it as a stick to beat him with, as this is not the norm with him in particular. Some of the vitriol levelled at him post match and earlier in the season is just blatant scapegoating. The three or four pages it took to prove the third was fuck all to do with him is a good example.

And once again Gallas gets slaughtered and pages of debate when Walker, who was far worse and finally killed the game with two consecutively piss poor pieces of defending (first giving the ball away and then tripping on it whilst trying another dodgy "see out" - which he's been caught at before) not to mention his failure to shout Gallas on the first and cover Mata for the third gets off relatively lightly by comparison.

The way Chelsea are playing now does come with in inherent vulnerability, I think I said so in my ratings, and I don't think RDM is a great coach/manager but this without doubt the most creatively attacking Chelsea team I've seen.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Maybe.
My point wasn't that we are going to be strong enough to cope without those two - but that jumping on one disappointing result against a very good Chelsea team under adverse circumstances doesn't prove that our squad is too weak for fourth.

For I start, I thought Townsend should have come on, and this is the few things I feel AVB has got wrong. Secondly, you do realise that Bale was off to see his missus giving birth, at the last minute, and not injured?

By-the-by, does anyone know if she had the sprog, etc?

No one comes on here to prove anything, we come on here to give an opinon, and mine is that our squad is not good enough in quality to finish 4th,
I am making this statement as we sit in 5th after 4 straight wins, so its not a kneejerk reaction after losing to chelsea, i genuinly feell we are short in certain positions, we failed to buy the likes of Mutinho and Willian and instead got Dempsey and Sig, and that may come back to bite us in our quest for 4th..IN MY OPINION.

 

[Damian99]

Not blond and dopey enough for you ?

You are an extremely sad man and at times an embarrassment.

 

[Legend10]

But that was pretty much what I said Steve. I'm not arguing that they ended up poor clearances, the words I used were earnest mistakes I think. It wasn't his intention in either case to put the ball where he did, he just tried to clear the ball as best he could. Deal with the phase of danger in front of him.

I don't agree that he should have glanced it (first one) I've watched it back tonight and the ball comes from a high trajectory and he has to jump to get it, very hard to direct a backwards glance with enough power, and there were two Chelsea players waiting behind him if he gets it wrong.

It would be one thing to say they were honest mistakes, another to make more of it than that and as you say use it as a stick to beat him with, as this is not the norm with him in particular. Some of the vitriol levelled at him post match and earlier in the season is just blatant scapegoating. The three or four pages it took to prove the third was fuck all to do with him is a good example.

And once again Gallas gets slaughtered and pages of debate when Walker, who was far worse and finally killed the game with two consecutively piss poor pieces of defending (first giving the ball away and then tripping on it whilst trying another dodgy "see out" - which he's been caught at before) not to mention his failure to shout Gallas on the first and cover Mata for the third gets off relatively lightly by comparison.

The way Chelsea are playing now does come with in inherent vulnerability, I think I said so in my ratings, and I don't think RDM is a great coach/manager but this without doubt the most creatively attacking Chelsea team I've seen.

Oh dear BC, come on now, this is nothing like what you said or have been saying at all!

You even said 100% of CB's would have done the same thing! That clearly implies that they aren't even mistakes and was the best he could do! You were telling people to 'behave' when they were saying they were mistakes! The balls were intially 'fired in' giving him no time, now the first has come from a 'high trajectory' meaning of all things he had too jump!

I'm the person you've mainly been having this discussion with and I haven't tried to beat or slaughter Gallas for it, in fact I think I said in my first post something like I'm not going to slaughter Gallas for it as they were just mistakes, however they were game changing mistakes!

Just too finish on that first goal, you say because he had to jump it's very hard to direct a backwards glance with enough power. He doesn't have to, You don't have to use your forehead to head everything, it would have been very simple for him to have used the top of his bonce to help it on. It's much much easier to do that than to do what he eventually did, which was get under it but manage to get his forehead on it and direct in to the most dangerous area of the pitch! And even if he doesn't get distance on that flick on and there are 2 chavs behind him it's still less dangerous than heading it blindly between the posts, as we, er discovered!

As for Cahill, seeming to believe that he had scored some sort of worldy, as far as volley's go in that area of the pitch that's about as easy a ball to hit as you are ever going to get! Nice float on it, coming at the perfect height and pace and because Caulker didn't in a million years expect Gallas to head it back in there no pressure to deal with. In Cahill's position even I would have been disappointed not to connect how he did, it was an invite!

A for the 2nd, if you decline the easiest and safest option and you don't get at least one of the 3 essentials and you drop it in that area and somebody scores, it can be nothing less than a fuck up! That moment and the one that nobody is talking about where I honestly believe Gylfi should have scored to make it 3-1 were ultimately the 2 biggest moments of the game (for me).

As a stats man BC, I can't believe you either didn't know that most goals are scored between the width of the posts in the penalty area? Or if you did why you think it's ok when you are under no pressure as a defender to drop it in there as you think that's what a 100% of CB's when under no pressure would do?

 

[StartingPrice]

1) I don't agree that he should have glanced it (first one) I've watched it back tonight and the ball comes from a high trajectory and he has to jump to get it, very hard to direct a backwards glance with enough power, and there were two Chelsea players waiting behind him if he gets it wrong.

2) The three or four pages it took to prove the third was fuck all to do with him is a good example.

1) So, you would prefer him to jump to get the ball and try to direct it with precision and accuracy to a team-mate in the vicinity of the absolute most dangerous area on the pitch with Gary Cahill waiting on the edge of the area if he gets it wrong (which is what happened)?
No-one is saying it was easy, that they are saying is he got it wrong, and because he was trying to do something that wasn't easy towards the most dangerous area on the pitch, he may have been better advised to make an equally different but slightly less dangerous option. In other words, he made the wrong decision. Of course, if he had tried to glance it backwards and got it wrong it may have fallen to a Chelsea player and the subsequent phase of play may have produced a goal, but at least the team and, maybe, himself, might have had a chance to recover. There was zero chance to recover from Cahill's shot.
Unless, of course, you are saying their would have been greater probability of it falling to a Chelsea player who could have shot first time and scored if he had tried a glancing header and got it wrong...is that what you are saying?

2) How has it taken you 4 pages to prove this? I think most of us knew it already. I have always endeavoured to be a voice of clam and patience where Jake Livermore is concerned (as I believe he is being unfairly targeted in much the same way as Jermaine Jenas was - something you hated), but even I said straight away that he should have tracked Mata, rather than waving his arm, to nobody in particular, in his general direction and then running into an area where we were already well covered. What you have taken 4 pages to prove is, once again, you tendency to polarize everything - if Livermore made a mistake then Gallas hasn't, is how your brain works. To be exact, it was shoddy defending as a team, with no one player totally culpable and the rest totally exonerated.

No one comes on here to prove anything, we come on here to give an opinon, and mine is that our squad is not good enough in quality to finish 4th,
I am making this statement as we sit in 5th after 4 straight wins, so its not a kneejerk reaction after losing to chelsea, i genuinly feell we are short in certain positions, we failed to buy the likes of Mutinho and Willian and instead got Dempsey and Sig, and that may come back to bite us in our quest for 4th..IN MY OPINION.

This would have been less funny if it hadn't come immediately after BCs post, containing Point 2, above

You are entitled to your opinion, but you expressed it and I gave my reasons for disagreeing. Part of having a right to an opinion is that others have a right to disagree with equal validity, which is where debating comes in. If you are not prepared to defend your opinion and accept it as wrong if it it shown to be so, maybe you should apply for a job with the Daily Fail

For the record, just in case I didn't express myself clearly, my response was not to say that our squad is strong enough, but to explain why that one game, under those specific circumstances does not show how weak our squad is, IMVHO. Whether I believe our squad is strong enough or not is a separate matter - but, again, for the sake of clarity, I have stated several times already, I don't think 4th is an absolute requirement, but I think we will attain it anyway - one of us will be wrong, come May

 

[stevenqoz]

Been away and just got to watch the full game now. What struck me was how flat footed our players seemed today. Huddlestone Dempsey Sig and Sandro were standouts in this respect....all are very one paced. Big Tom has never really been light on his feet but when he passed it generally got there. Of course we missed the running/dribbling of Bale and Dembele. Sig and Dempsey were two pretty ordinary players who did not run or dribble very well ....both were very pedestrian today. Of our players who do have a change of pace Lennon was generally good and got over the top of Cole imo. Walker continues to worry me because he thinks he can give players a start and catch them...most times he can but Chelsea have too many smart ball runners to take that risk. When he attacks he hesitates before delivery....very frustrating... he needs to play what he sees because the forward players have made their run. Defoe was unseen first half but probably our most effective player second half especially coming inside from the left. AVB needs to get a fit Ade into this side alongside Defoe......Dempsey and Sig to the bench. I'd like to see this next time we have the full squad to pick from
...............Lloris
Walker Gallas Caulker Vert
..Dembele Sandro Bale
...Lennon Ade Defoe

 

[sloth]

In the last few pages there's been lot's of over analysis of a single goal to not much purpose. Imo, for such an analysis to be worth while you should be saying Gallas/Walker/Vertonghen/Livermore/AVB is generally weak in x way, and this goal illustrates what I mean, otherwise what are people arguing about?

Anyway, back to the game. It's very difficult to draw any firm conclusions from it. I thought we were done for once Bale and Demebele were out. I thought we were doubly fucked when Defoe and Friedel started and the first half seemed to confirm this, however, without making any changes (afaict), the second half we came back strongly and could conceivably have got something out of it. I should also say that I thought Defoe played one of the best games I've ever seen from him.

The positives then were Defoe and Lennon (MOTM for me). For the negatives you could chose from a host of players, but special mention must go to Walker, who should be dropped for Naughton in the next game, imo.

Other talking points have to be the continued exclusions of Adebayor and Lloris from the team. I'm not entirely sure what AVB is trying to demonstrate here...? People have praised him for picking players on merit, and on that basis you could say it sends out a positive message to the players that Friedel and Defoe keep their places, however that for me is undermined by his continued preference for Dempsey. Personally I would have played Adebayor as a lone striker, and Defoe would have been on the bench, but once you've decided you're going to play Defoe then the choice surely becomes between the qualities of Dempsey and the qualities of Adebayor? As always the judgement must be based around which player is going to help the team score more goals and concede fewer? I'm not sure what Dempsey brings to the table that Adebayor doesn't? Does he get more involved in general play? Does he run the channels better? Is he more creative on the ball? Is he quicker, stronger, better on the deck or in the air? Will he score more goals? Assist more? Will he help Defoe score more goals? Is he more useful defensively? Is it a moral thing? Did he have a pre-season? Did he go on strike? Once you play Defoe then it has to be Adebayor alongside him surely?

In the case of Lloris and Friedel it feels like a simple failure of insight from AVB? Can he not see how Friedel's lack of contribution to the defence, the fact that he is a shot-stopper and literally nothing else, makes him a worse option than Lloris? And that's leaving aside the fact that alienating Lloris in favour of a player who is sure be out by the end of the season is plain dumb. The benefits to the morale of the team of his strategy of supporting Friedel (who he claims is on form) come what may are surely limited? And must be outweighed by the damage to morale caused by even losing a single game due to selecting the wrong man. I said it at the beginning of the season, the guy is trying to be too cute. I believe in a focus on detail, but not to the extent that you stop seeing the big picture, you need a man who can do both.

All of that said, it should be taken in the context of a promising start to the season, and over all I'm happy with how we're doing, and the job that AVB is doing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Oh dear BC, come on now, this is nothing like what you said or have been saying at all!

You even said 100% of CB's would have done the same thing! That clearly implies that they aren't even mistakes and was the best he could do! You were telling people to 'behave' when they were saying they were mistakes! The balls were intially 'fired in' giving him no time, now the first has come from a 'high trajectory' meaning of all things he had too jump!

I'm the person you've mainly been having this discussion with and I haven't tried to beat or slaughter Gallas for it, in fact I think I said in my first post something like I'm not going to slaughter Gallas for it as they were just mistakes, however they were game changing mistakes!

Just too finish on that first goal, you say because he had to jump it's very hard to direct a backwards glance with enough power. He doesn't have to, You don't have to use your forehead to head everything, it would have been very simple for him to have used the top of his bonce to help it on. It's much much easier to do that than to do what he eventually did, which was get under it but manage to get his forehead on it and direct in to the most dangerous area of the pitch! And even if he doesn't get distance on that flick on and there are 2 chavs behind him it's still less dangerous than heading it blindly between the posts, as we, er discovered!

As for Cahill, seeming to believe that he had scored some sort of worldy, as far as volley's go in that area of the pitch that's about as easy a ball to hit as you are ever going to get! Nice float on it, coming at the perfect height and pace and because Caulker didn't in a million years expect Gallas to head it back in there no pressure to deal with. In Cahill's position even I would have been disappointed not to connect how he did, it was an invite!

A for the 2nd, if you decline the easiest and safest option and you don't get at least one of the 3 essentials and you drop it in that area and somebody scores, it can be nothing less than a fuck up! That moment and the one that nobody is talking about where I honestly believe Gylfi should have scored to make it 3-1 were ultimately the 2 biggest moments of the game (for me).

As a stats man BC, I can't believe you either didn't know that most goals are scored between the width of the posts in the penalty area? Or if you did why you think it's ok when you are under no pressure as a defender to drop it in there as you think that's what a 100% of CB's when under no pressure would do?

What if it just bounces up off the top of his bounce. And I repeat, there were also two Chelsea players stood directly behind him, what if he doesn't get enough distance on it ? Then you would be complaining as well, no ? The point I was trying to make was that he wasn't deliberately, consciously deciding to place his clearances where he did. They were poor clearances that were intended to be better. The second one is ludicrous to criticise. That ball is coming in low and at pace, he opens his body to make sure he makes a good contact, if he tried to hit back the way it came, he's likely to slice or have much less control over where it ends up.

You say you aren't scapegoating him, but have then spent about 4 pages trying to make the most out of the incidents. I'm saying they were fairly routine things that can happen when a cb does things in those circumstances and it's rare that they get punishes, let alone twice.

I said he had a mixed bag and marked him accordingly and still do not believe he should be scapegaoted - as some clearly did - for that performance, as he was one of many who had mixed/poor games. I believe there were some overall performances that were worse, including the managers. Other players committed worse errors - because they involved easier failed choices for example - and some got punished and some didn't. But we haven't spent 4 pages talking about them, and they were far more valid.

 

[Legend10]

What if it just bounces up off the top of his bounce. And I repeat, there were also two Chelsea players stood directly behind him, what if he doesn't get enough distance on it ? Then you would be complaining as well, no ? The point I was trying to make was that he wasn't deliberately, consciously deciding to place his clearances where he did. They were poor clearances that were intended to be better. The second one is ludicrous to criticise. That ball is coming in low and at pace, he opens his body to make sure he makes a good contact, if he tried to hit back the way it came, he's likely to slice or have much less control over where it ends up.

You say you aren't scapegoating him, but have then spent about 4 pages trying to make the most out of the incidents. I'm saying they were fairly routine things that can happen when a cb does things in those circumstances and it's rare that they get punishes, let alone twice.

I said he had a mixed bag and marked him accordingly and still do not believe he should be scapegaoted - as some clearly did - for that performance, as he was one of many who had mixed/poor games. I believe there were some overall performances that were worse, including the managers. Other players committed worse errors - because they involved easier failed choices for example - and some got punished and some didn't. But we haven't spent 4 pages talking about them, and they were far more valid.

The answer to the first question is no, i wouldn't criticise him if it went straight up in the air or to somebody behind him, as a) he would have been trying to do the right thing b) Both scenarios would have given us a chance to defend the second ball, which heading in to the area that he did didn't afford us! Anywhere and anything is a better case sceanrio than heading back in to the danger area between the width of your own posts.

The second I agree wtotally with Steve it's actually relatively simple to deal with, he didn't even need to change his body shape to put it out where it's come from, instead he tried to adjust himself and make a clearance down field and fluffed his lines.

I'm not scapegoating Galls at all but the point remains these 2 incidents were pivitol in us losing the game. even Gallas said all 4 goals were poor mistakes, who do you think he was referring to on goals 1 & 2 if not himself?

4 pages of comment isn't scape goating, game after game, post after post, week after week is scapegoating! Now who would do that about any of our players? Just imagine if somebody did that about say players like:

Defoe
Lennon
Hudd
Walker
Dawson etc!

That might be seen as scapegoating perhaps?

 

[southlondonyiddo]

What if it just bounces up off the top of his bounce. And I repeat, there were also two Chelsea players stood directly behind him, what if he doesn't get enough distance on it ? Then you would be complaining as well, no ? The point I was trying to make was that he wasn't deliberately, consciously deciding to place his clearances where he did. They were poor clearances that were intended to be better. The second one is ludicrous to criticise. That ball is coming in low and at pace, he opens his body to make sure he makes a good contact, if he tried to hit back the way it came, he's likely to slice or have much less control over where it ends up.

You say you aren't scapegoating him, but have then spent about 4 pages trying to make the most out of the incidents. I'm saying they were fairly routine things that can happen when a cb does things in those circumstances and it's rare that they get punishes, let alone twice.

I said he had a mixed bag and marked him accordingly and still do not believe he should be scapegaoted - as some clearly did - for that performance, as he was one of many who had mixed/poor games. I believe there were some overall performances that were worse, including the managers. Other players committed worse errors - because they involved easier failed choices for example - and some got punished and some didn't. But we haven't spent 4 pages talking about them, and they were far more valid.

A good central defender rarely makes one of those mistakes in a game let alone 2

With very good ones like The King (or even Gallas 3 or 4 seasons ago) you could count on one hand the amount of mistakes like this they'd make over the course of many many seasons

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The answer to the first question is no, i wouldn't criticise him if it went straight up in the air or to somebody behind him, as a) he would have been trying to do the right thing b) Both scenarios would have given us a chance to defend the second ball, which heading in to the area that he did didn't afford us! Anywhere and anything is a better case sceanrio than heading back in to the danger area between the width of your own posts.

The second I agree wtotally with Steve it's actually relatively simple to deal with, he didn't even need to change his body shape to put it out where it's come from, instead he tried to adjust himself and make a clearance down field and fluffed his lines.

I'm not scapegoating Galls at all but the point remains these 2 incidents were pivitol in us losing the game. even Gallas said all 4 goals were poor mistakes, who do you think he was referring to on goals 1 & 2 if not himself?

4 pages of comment isn't scape goating, game after game, post after post, week after week is scapegoating! Now who would do that about any of our players? Just imagine if somebody did that about say players like:

Defoe
Lennon
Hudd
Walker
Dawson etc!

That might be seen as scapegoating perhaps?

Criticising players is fine. A scapegoat is blaming one person unfairly when others are equally or more to blame. Those players above deserve the criticism I've given them. And it was often dished out to all of them at the same time, therefore not scapegoating, but scattergoating, it's much fairer cousin.

I think blaming Gallas for that defeat is scapegoating. I think we lost because our manager made some bad choices, we surrendered the midfield, our striker and winger have limited brain function and our defenders - all of them - made mistakes.

I think if you watch a typical premiership weekend you will see every type of CB (form top quality to bottom) make clearances like Gallas did.

If Gallas had had possession of the ball, then given it to Mata, then won it back, then given it back to him once again putting him through on goal, that would be a much more serious mistake.

 

[Legend10]

Criticising players is fine. A scapegoat is blaming one person unfairly when others are equally or more to blame. Those players above deserve the criticism I've given them. And it was often dished out to all of them at the same time, therefore not scapegoating, but scattergoating, it's much fairer cousin.

I think blaming Gallas for that defeat is scapegoating. I think we lost because our manager made some bad choices, we surrendered the midfield, our striker and winger have limited brain function and our defenders - all of them - made mistakes.

I think if you watch a typical premiership weekend you will see every type of CB (form top quality to bottom) make clearances like Gallas did.

If Gallas had had possession of the ball, then given it to Mata, then won it back, then given it back to him once again putting him through on goal, that would be a much more serious mistake.

how does it go?


Once we realise that imperfect understanding is the human condition there is no shame in being wrong, only in failing to correct our mistakes.

 

[steve]

We didn't lose cos of Billy G let's make that clear.

But his initial body shape for the cross for the second goal is perfect. He's square on to the ball coming in and perfectly balanced to send it back the way it came. Any decent level player sends that back the way it comes with ease. A shit footballer would slice it but we're talking a really poor sunday player not a Prem player of his quality.

The problem comes when he opens his body out. Now he's side on and is trying to play a ball coming across his body - this is a much more difficult skill as he's trying to divert the ball 90 degrees to the right and get distance on it. He didn't mean to scuff it of course but he did and into an area of danger. At the time we were winning and he should've played the percentages but hindsight is great after all.

He's been excellent this season especially at OT and the rest of his game vs Chelsea was better than caulkers for example, but it was what it was - a mistake and we got punished for it. It happens to the best after all.

Oh and sorry Sloth for discussing players mistakes in the match ratings thread, we'll stick to the goalkeeper situation in future...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We didn't lose cos of Billy G let's make that clear.

But his initial body shape for the cross for the second goal is perfect. He's square on to the ball coming in and perfectly balanced to send it back the way it came. Any decent level player sends that back the way it comes with ease. A shit footballer would slice it but we're talking a really poor sunday player not a Prem player of his quality.

The problem comes when he opens his body out. Now he's side on and is trying to play a ball coming across his body - this is a much more difficult skill as he's trying to divert the ball 90 degrees to the right and get distance on it. He didn't mean to scuff it of course but he did and into an area of danger. At the time we were winning and he should've played the percentages but hindsight is great after all.

He's been excellent this season especially at OT and the rest of his game vs Chelsea was better than caulkers for example, but it was what it was - a mistake and we got punished for it. It happens to the best after all.

Oh and sorry Sloth for discussing players mistakes in the match ratings thread, we'll stick to the goalkeeper situation in future...

You have spoilt L10's lovely ending now. It was so poetic I thought it deserved the last word.

I disagree. Why do you think Gallas made the choices he did ? He is an experienced quality defender, surely he did what he felt, based on the situation and his experience, was the best thing to do at the time. You guys are second guessing his choices and assuming you are right. I'm not saying you are completely wrong, I'm saying I can understand why he did what he did and am basing that on what I see week in week out. We will see top quality defenders every week doing these "less than perfect clearing actions" (for want of a better description) that you and L10 are alluding to. King, Ferdinand, Vidic et al, all did/do it. Just like a keeper coming and just getting something on a cross (but not getting much distance). I've always defended that too. Because 99/100 it serves it's purpose. If he misjudges the flight of the ball and bobbles it straight up and gets no distance that would be worse IMO.

I'd be more worried by Gallas's occasional penchant for dribbling out and giving the ball away than the two clearances, because I can't remember a single instance of poor clearances being punished like that (by any of our defenders/goalie being punished like that before - and fuck knows they happen enough), but getting caught on the ball when you are the last line is far more dangerous, as Walker demonstrated with aplomb.

I'm not going to argue any more on it because I think we aren't going to agree, and I don't think either of you are entirely wrong to seek perfection, I just think the level of emphasis on it in this case was skewed because what happened subsequently. Defenders make less than perfect clearances all the time. It is just remarkable that both got banged into our net. And I think Friedel's contribution to both of those was much worse than Gallas's. One goes straight at him and one trickles in and he does't even fucking move.

 

[Legend10]

We didn't lose cos of Billy G let's make that clear.

But his initial body shape for the cross for the second goal is perfect. He's square on to the ball coming in and perfectly balanced to send it back the way it came. Any decent level player sends that back the way it comes with ease. A shit footballer would slice it but we're talking a really poor sunday player not a Prem player of his quality.

The problem comes when he opens his body out. Now he's side on and is trying to play a ball coming across his body - this is a much more difficult skill as he's trying to divert the ball 90 degrees to the right and get distance on it. He didn't mean to scuff it of course but he did and into an area of danger. At the time we were winning and he should've played the percentages but hindsight is great after all.

He's been excellent this season especially at OT and the rest of his game vs Chelsea was better than caulkers for example, but it was what it was - a mistake and we got punished for it. It happens to the best after all.

Oh and sorry Sloth for discussing players mistakes in the match ratings thread, we'll stick to the goalkeeper situation in future...

I agree with every word of that!

 

[Legend10]

You have spoilt L10's lovely ending now. It was so poetic I thought it deserved the last word.

I disagree. Why do you think Gallas made the choices he did ? He is an experienced quality defender, surely he did what he felt, based on the situation and his experience, was the best thing to do at the time. You guys are second guessing his choices and assuming you are right. I'm not saying you are completely wrong, I'm saying I can understand why he did what he did and am basing that on what I see week in week out. We will see top quality defenders every week doing these "less than perfect clearing actions" (for want of a better description) that you and L10 are alluding to. King, Ferdinand, Vidic et al, all did/do it. Just like a keeper coming and just getting something on a cross (but not getting much distance). I've always defended that too. Because 99/100 it serves it's purpose. If he misjudges the flight of the ball and bobbles it straight up and gets no distance that would be worse IMO.

I'd be more worried by Gallas's occasional penchant for dribbling out and giving the ball away than the two clearances, because I can't remember a single instance of poor clearances being punished like that (by any of our defenders/goalie being punished like that before - and fuck knows they happen enough), but getting caught on the ball when you are the last line is far more dangerous, as Walker demonstrated with aplomb.

I'm not going to argue any more on it because I think we aren't going to agree, and I don't think either of you are entirely wrong to seek perfection, I just think the level of emphasis on it in this case was skewed because what happened subsequently. Defenders make less than perfect clearances all the time. It is just remarkable that both got banged into our net. And I think Friedel's contribution to both of those was much worse than Gallas's. One goes straight at him and one trickles in and he does't even fucking move.

Thank you for noting 'my lovely ending'

I also have to stress again at this point that I'm not blaming Gallas and have said throughout this thread that they were just mistakes, nothing more, I've also stated repeatedly in here that I like William and I also believe taking everything in to consideration he's been excellent for us that far.

But you can still accept that players you believe to be important ones will and do make mistakes, even ones that are major and pivitol to us losing. In the same way that you can praise players and acknowledge their contribution even match winning ones without a 'but' when they are players that you don't think worthy of donning the mighty shirt or maybe just a place in the team.

I can remember during his 2nd stint at Spurs that I praised Robbie Keane once! I think I did anyway, or was I pissed!

 

[Damian99]

I can remember during his 2nd stint at Spurs that I praised Robbie Keane once! I think I did anyway, or was I pissed!

[/quote]

Reading through most of your replies, certainly in this tread, i would have to guess you're always the latter.

 

[StartingPrice]

You have spoilt L10's lovely ending now. It was so poetic I thought it deserved the last word.

I disagree. Why do you think Gallas made the choices he did ? He is an experienced quality defender, surely he did what he felt, based on the situation and his experience, was the best thing to do at the time. You guys are second guessing his choices and assuming you are right. I'm not saying you are completely wrong, I'm saying I can understand why he did what he did and am basing that on what I see week in week out. We will see top quality defenders every week doing these "less than perfect clearing actions" (for want of a better description) that you and L10 are alluding to. King, Ferdinand, Vidic et al, all did/do it. Just like a keeper coming and just getting something on a cross (but not getting much distance). I've always defended that too. Because 99/100 it serves it's purpose. If he misjudges the flight of the ball and bobbles it straight up and gets no distance that would be worse IMO.

I'd be more worried by Gallas's occasional penchant for dribbling out and giving the ball away than the two clearances, because I can't remember a single instance of poor clearances being punished like that (by any of our defenders/goalie being punished like that before - and fuck knows they happen enough), but getting caught on the ball when you are the last line is far more dangerous, as Walker demonstrated with aplomb.

I'm not going to argue any more on it because I think we aren't going to agree, and I don't think either of you are entirely wrong to seek perfection, I just think the level of emphasis on it in this case was skewed because what happened subsequently. Defenders make less than perfect clearances all the time. It is just remarkable that both got banged into our net. And I think Friedel's contribution to both of those was much worse than Gallas's. One goes straight at him and one trickles in and he does't even fucking move.

Jaysus
In regard to the first goal, which is the only one I have commented on, I think he believed he could effectively guide his header to a team-mate. I'm sure he did do that based on his experience, etc., etc., and if he had got it right it would have been a good decision. But he didn't get it right and therefore, because the cost of getting it wrong was more immediately dangerous, and less rectifiable, it was a call he had to get exactly right - otherwise it would be a bad call. He got it wrong, therefore it was a bad call. it's not about second guessing it - and if it was Walker, THudd, Daws, etc., I believe you would just say exactly that he could on something that was very high risk (by dint of the ball going right into the danger area if he got it wrong and much harder to recover from than the other options). There is no assumption about that - just like there is no assumption that when Defoe lashes a shot in when there are several defenders in front of him and he could very easily put a team-mate through, and he misses we say that he made the wrong decision and is a greedy , but on the occasions that it goes in we jump up and down and shout "great fecking goal" and don't question his decision making at all. I can understand why he did what he did, too, and it would have been excellent defending if he got it right, and I base that on what I see week in, week out. And in this instance, it was a bad call because it was high risk and he got it wrong.

For the record, I think William Gallas has more than justified his signing, I have made him man-of-the-match on several occasions when hardly anyone else did, and I haven't scapegoated him for the Cheslea defeat. But he took on a high risk ball and got it wrong, on this instance, and that makes it a bad decision, /of.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thank you for noting 'my lovely ending'

I also have to stress again at this point that I'm not blaming Gallas and have said throughout this thread that they were just mistakes, nothing more, I've also stated repeatedly in here that I like William and I also believe taking everything in to consideration he's been excellent for us that far.

But you can still accept that players you believe to be important ones will and do make mistakes, even ones that are major and pivitol to us losing. In the same way that you can praise players and acknowledge their contribution even match winning ones without a 'but' when they are players that you don't think worthy of donning the mighty shirt or maybe just a place in the team.

I can remember during his 2nd stint at Spurs that I praised Robbie Keane once! I think I did anyway, or was I pissed!

I never got that pissed.