Mentality

[spurslenny]

It is Poch telling players to pass your way out on the edge of our goal area and dont clear it on pain of death, even when we're penned in with nowhere to go.
The fk up is inevitable.
Its Poch telling Lloris to throw the ball out when its obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that its fkin suicidal.
I agree players should take responsibility as well.
This is what I mean by players not thinking about whats going on and just carrying out instructions like a drone.
Surely to Christ if you're a player you'd think 'we keep fkin around like this we're going to concede in a minute'. But they dont. Even after 2 go in in 10min its "carry on."
'Doing what I was told so not my fault.'
Sorry but imo players have to take some responsibility as well. Yes its mostly down to Poch but surely Dier must realise fkin about when you're the last man is not a good idea? I run a u9s team, they know this.

This is the very thing we seem to be missing - football intelligence.

Is it that the players are blindly following Poch's instructions and not realising that they should be adjusting the tactic themselves to suit the in-game situation? Or is Poch not allowing them too?

All the best teams utilise 'football intelligence' when things aren't quite going right. How many times have you heard ex pro's commentating and saying things like 'I'd be dropping back and helping out my LB for 5mins' or 'telling the winger in front of me to help me out defensively '? These might not be the exact tactics laid out by the manager pre game, but needs must during a game when you're getting overrun. Furthermore, any manager worth his salt shouldn't be dissuading his players from making those in-game decisions.

Imo this is where we differ from the likes of Chelsea (bar the gulf in squad strength and depth), and it's something our players and manager should be learning to do if we are to progress.

 

[Galactico14]

Regarding top 6, really you'd expect them to win home games as we expect to win ours.

I thought we were superb against against Chelsea away but a wonderful strike from Pedro and not having rose at left back cost us probably.

Did well against arsenal, on the back of a really bad run - either side could have one that one.

City we were outplayed but ground out a point from loseing position.

That leaves Liverpool were I think we just got it tactically totally wrong and man.utd was a poor game in general.

I'm sure poch could go out tomorrow and sort our squad if he had the funds and more importantly the wage structure our top 6 rivals have.

 

[shelfboy68]

Regarding top 6, really you'd expect them to win home games as we expect to win ours.

I thought we were superb against against Chelsea away but a wonderful strike from Pedro and not having rose at left back cost us probably.

Did well against arsenal, on the back of a really bad run - either side could have one that one.

City we were outplayed but ground out a point from loseing position.

That leaves Liverpool were I think we just got it tactically totally wrong and man.utd was a poor game in general.

I'm sure poch could go out tomorrow and sort our squad if he had the funds and more importantly the wage structure our top 6 rivals have.

Sadly we don't have the fund's that is why probably we will still be in the same boat next year which is good competitive and in amongst the pack, but not winning no title nor maybe anything else other than staying competitive which looks like the levy master plan.

 

[Galactico14]

Sadly we don't have the fund's that is why probably we will still be in the same boat next year which is good competitive and in amongst the pack, but not winning no title nor maybe anything else other than staying competitive which looks like the levy master plan.

I don't want to get into a debate over Levy, but I agree nothing will change until we at least get the new stadium - then we can make judgements on his master plan. To still be competitive with our rivals despite that challenge is great credit to poch and the team.

 

[Hercules]

I don't want to get into a debate over Levy, but I agree nothing will change until we at least get the new stadium - then we can make judgements on his master plan. To still be competitive with our rivals despite that challenge is great credit to poch and the team.

Levy fell on a lucky dice with Poch. And I think he will have to loosen up, or you may find Poch sighting to find a club to meet his ambitions. It rankles when the new stadium keeps being used as an excuse for nil spend and wages. You cannot keep shopping in 3rd level project markets, expecting to pull out 'A level' results on a
success ratio of say 70% per season. Alli is the 3rd level success last season, with Toby, Son, and Wanyama in the past year and a half.

The failures during that time has been N'Jie, Fazio, Stambouli, GKN (?), Janssen, Wimmer (?), Sissoko. Pretty sure I have forgotten a couple, though we did not sell at a loss. That is good as a business plan, but bad as a football plan. Our scouting needs to be more cute and aggressive. Levy stops haggling and gets the business done early by meeting terms.

 

[yido_number1]

Levy fell on a lucky dice with Poch. And I think he will have to loosen up, or you may find Poch sighting to find a club to meet his ambitions. It rankles when the new stadium keeps being used as an excuse for nil spend and wages. You cannot keep shopping in 3rd level project markets, expecting to pull out 'A level' results on a
success ratio of say 70% per season. Alli is the 3rd level success last season, with Toby, Son, and Wanyama in the past year and a half.

The failures during that time has been N'Jie, Fazio, Stambouli, GKN (?), Janssen, Wimmer (?), Sissoko. Pretty sure I have forgotten a couple, though we did not sell at a loss. That is good as a business plan, but bad as a football plan. Our scouting needs to be more cute and aggressive. Levy stops haggling and gets the business done early by meeting terms.

I think the club have identified scouting as an issue and tried to change it. Can you really say GKN, Wimmer and Janssen are all failures considering age and what they were signed for? We're still third in the league with a squad assembled with 6th place money. I'd say we're in need of tweeks not overhaul and maybe a bit less over reacting when we have only lost 3 games all year to Man Utd at Old Trafford, Chelsea at the Bridge and Liverpool at Anfield. Can you remember a time when we were losing at West Ham, West Brom, Middlesboro et al

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

It rankles when the new stadium keeps being used as an excuse for nil spend and wages.

Especially when Levy said the new build wouldn't impact our transfer budget.

 

[tiger666]

Especially when Levy said the new build wouldn't impact our transfer budget.

It hasn't. He never intended to spend anything anyway

 

[Hercules]

I think the club have identified scouting as an issue and tried to change it. Can you really say GKN, Wimmer and Janssen are all failures considering age and what they were signed for? We're still third in the league with a squad assembled with 6th place money. I'd say we're in need of tweeks not overhaul and maybe a bit less over reacting when we have only lost 3 games all year to Man Utd at Old Trafford, Chelsea at the Bridge and Liverpool at Anfield. Can you remember a time when we were losing at West Ham, West Brom, Middlesboro et al

I did put question marks against those.

 

[Hercules]

Especially when Levy said the new build wouldn't impact our transfer budget.

Exactly

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Win a trophy. It sounds like a cliche quick fix. It isn't. Until we win a trophy, we'll have a fickle mentality. When we do win a trophy, a new door will be opened.

Winning the league cup under Ramos didn't turn us into a mentally stronger collective. Wigan winning a trophy didn't give them the collective mental strength to stay up or even do well the next season in a weaker league. Where did Leicester get the mental strength to win a title from?

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Winning the league cup under Ramos didn't turn us into a mentally stronger collective. Wigan winning a trophy didn't give them the collective mental strength to stay up or even do well the next season in a weaker league. Where did Leicester get the mental strength to win a title from?

The main reason we have won bugger all for many a season is plain and simple. When we get a half decent side playing together the good ones bugger off. The list is endless.

Poch and Levy have stemmed that flow and likely stopped it for the foreseeable future. In Wigan's case half the PL sides in the FA Cup field second string sides so to win the final is just a crap shoot. Didn't Hull Tigers make the final one year? Doesn't take a genius to figure out how devalued that Trophy is nowdays. As for Leicester well, Chel$ea were almost in the same boat the previous season weren't they?

For the youngest side in PL history to have lost three games so far this season requires mental strength with some fortitude. I couldn't think of a single PL side who would forgo our record of losing away to Man Ure, Chel$ea and Liverpool as their only losses in over half a season.

Saturday's result and the way we lost was poor, but i can live with that three times in twenty five PL games, and still be third in the table while missing three of our most influential players.

Mental strength deficiency as an excuse or reason is just grasping a straws. We have won more points from being behind than any other PL team this season and you don't achieve that by being flaky.

 

[CockOnBall]

Watched MNF last night and yes those stats of us against the big clubs away is poor but I think the expectation put on our club by the media is wrong.

'They'll do a leeds' is a new one. What an odd stick to beat us with.

Lets remember that Leeds got to the top in a short space of time by spending huge sums of money and failed to sustain it having over spent (Keane and Lennon for just 8m by way, imagine us having to sell our crown jewels for dirt cheap by panicking into making stupid gambles because Carragher thinks it's a good idea!). Yet comparably, we're not outspending our rivals at all. Our wage bill puts us around 6 in terms of ranking and the 'big five' all spent 90m+ plus, each in the summer.

We just have to accept that we're making gradual improvements and given the huge investments going on around us, standing still (i.e. finishing 3rd) will take more points this year and therefore is a sign of improvement IMO. Worst thing we can do is start kicking up a stink like Arsenal fans do and putting more pressure on our team.

I think our manager and players all have a lot to learn. Poch privately, i hope, will admit he got his tactics wrong vs LFC. Playing our normal pressing game was a bad decision but he's young enough not to be too concerned that's he, like Wenger is, may be stuck in his ways. Eriksen, Alli etc all have patchy form and hopefully with experience, their off peaks will be shorter than they are now which run into 10 game spells at times.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Levy fell on a lucky dice with Poch. And I think he will have to loosen up, or you may find Poch sighting to find a club to meet his ambitions. It rankles when the new stadium keeps being used as an excuse for nil spend and wages. You cannot keep shopping in 3rd level project markets, expecting to pull out 'A level' results on a
success ratio of say 70% per season. Alli is the 3rd level success last season, with Toby, Son, and Wanyama in the past year and a half.

The failures during that time has been N'Jie, Fazio, Stambouli, GKN (?), Janssen, Wimmer (?), Sissoko. Pretty sure I have forgotten a couple, though we did not sell at a loss. That is good as a business plan, but bad as a football plan. Our scouting needs to be more cute and aggressive. Levy stops haggling and gets the business done early by meeting terms.

So if Levy appoints a good manager it's luck, not good judgement ? I think Pochettino was a huge gamble, I think any manager is to be honest, but one with limited experience, who has won absolutely nothing, and his CV reads up and down with Espanyol and 8th place with Southampton was hardly the safest bet out there was it ?

If you look at the appointments Levy has made the only one that was out of sync with our general philosophy (emphasis on coaching moderate/cheaply bought players with potential and improving them rather than being able to buy proven top drawer, whilst maintaining relative credible league success) the only manager he's hired with any kind of PL track record was Redknapp, yet we have steadily progressed as club form laughing stock who I had literally given up watching away from home because it was too painful, to a well performing club who consistently over achieve based on the very reliable salary criteria.

I think ultimately Poch will move to a bigger club if he keeps producing what he has to date, because no matter how many 30m Sissoko looseners Levy offers, we will never be ManU or Real Madrid, and in the medium term we probably won't even be ManC or PSG, at best in about 5-7 years time we will be where Arsenal are now.

But one thing's for sure, if Levy listens to Poch and blows more massive sums on mediocre players, the guy that replaces him will have his work cut out.

 

[djw1973]

For me it is a mix of 2 things; lack of belief and one coaching method.

Firstly, we need a winner in the team, a captain in the middle of the pitch that will take the game by the scruff of the neck and make things happen. All great teams have a dictator on the pitch, a leader or a maestro of sorts. Gerrard, Lampard, Keane, Vieira, Souness, all game changers, skillful, could score, tackle, dictate etc. Who is our game changer?

Secondly, we are booted to play possession football. The minute a team presses us like Liverpool, or can hold the ball like City, we don't have a clue. Players start to become isolated like Kane and Son and then ultimately have no impact on the game. Playing 3 at the back seemed to free us up, because Rose and Walker could push on and help support the front players.If we get pegged back, we can't support the front players as there is no width and hence no pace to pull their defence out of position.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Winning the league cup under Ramos didn't turn us into a mentally stronger collective. Wigan winning a trophy didn't give them the collective mental strength to stay up or even do well the next season in a weaker league. Where did Leicester get the mental strength to win a title from?

If you want to compare Poch to Ramos and Spurs to Wigan and Leicester, feel free.

Remember that you left out conveniently examples like all the PL title winners in modern times who won a trophy in the season prior to winning the PL. So your selective and cirumstantial evidences are anything but conclusive.

 

[SpursDave88]

For me it is a mix of 2 things; lack of belief and one coaching method.

Firstly, we need a winner in the team, a captain in the middle of the pitch that will take the game by the scruff of the neck and make things happen. All great teams have a dictator on the pitch, a leader or a maestro of sorts. Gerrard, Lampard, Keane, Vieira, Souness, all game changers, skillful, could score, tackle, dictate etc. Who is our game changer?

Secondly, we are booted to play possession football. The minute a team presses us like Liverpool, or can hold the ball like City, we don't have a clue. Players start to become isolated like Kane and Son and then ultimately have no impact on the game. Playing 3 at the back seemed to free us up, because Rose and Walker could push on and help support the front players.If we get pegged back, we can't support the front players as there is no width and hence no pace to pull their defence out of position.

Again I'm not sure this is exactly true...given that Lampard, Gerrard, Keane, Viera and Souness are all extremely different players.

Lampard was neither skillful, nor known for his tackling or passing abilities (great player though he was)

Souness was neither skillful nor a goalscorer.

Gerrard, despite being all the things you mentioned, never actually won a premier league title.

Besides, Delli Alli has been compared to both Lampard and Gerrard.

We have game changers in Alli, Kane, Eriksen and even Lamela.

I think what you are really saying, which has already been stated, is that we don't have a player who is absolutely world class. But then again, neither do Liverpool and they had no problem beating us.

You are right about us being poor when pressed.

As a team overall, aside from just an overall improvement in ability or mentality, which are essentially intangible and difficult to achieve, the thing we really lack is pace in behind. because of this, our opposition should be encouraged to play a high line against us and press high up the pitch. I know it's all ifs and buts, but the player we really needed was Mane, instead of Sissoko, N'koudou and Janssen. We would have saved a transfer fee and wages and had a better team and squad.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If you want to compare Poch to Ramos and Spurs to Wigan and Leicester, feel free.

Remember that you left out conveniently examples like all the PL title winners in modern times who won a trophy in the season prior to winning the PL. So your selective and cirumstantial evidences are anything but conclusive.

I'm not comparing Poch to Ramos, but are you saying your "need to win something" rule only applies to certain managers.

But Leicester didn't win a trophy before winning the PL ?

When talking about all other PL winners you are talking about the 4 richest and most expensively assembled teams in England and even they haven't always followed cup success with league success (Arsenal lately e.g.).

What I think is that the best teams, by definition, will win trophies and leagues, I don't think personally there's a cause/effect thing happening. Your rule only seems to apply to the best/richest clubs, who are always more likely to win things.

 

[StartingPrice]

Levy fell on a lucky dice with Poch. And I think he will have to loosen up, or you may find Poch sighting to find a club to meet his ambitions. It rankles when the new stadium keeps being used as an excuse for nil spend and wages. You cannot keep shopping in 3rd level project markets, expecting to pull out 'A level' results on a
success ratio of say 70% per season. Alli is the 3rd level success last season, with Toby, Son, and Wanyama in the past year and a half.

The failures during that time has been N'Jie, Fazio, Stambouli, GKN (?), Janssen, Wimmer (?), Sissoko. Pretty sure I have forgotten a couple, though we did not sell at a loss. That is good as a business plan, but bad as a football plan. Our scouting needs to be more cute and aggressive. Levy stops haggling and gets the business done early by meeting terms.

Yeah...kinda like United fell on a lucky dice when they hired Fergie. Doubly so when you consider he would have joined us if his wife hadn't objected to moving down south. Triply so when the clamour from the fans was such, at his lack of success, that their hands were hovering over the EJECT button (despite the fact that they hadn't been massively successful for decades).

And you could say exactly the same when Liverpool hired Shankly. Where were they at that time? What was there to suggest that they would supplant Everton as the most successful club on Merseyside?

 

[spurs9]

We take in more money than Borussia Dortmund. How do they manage to be so good (genuine question)? Could we learn something from them?

They are 4th, 15 points behind 1st and 8 points behind second in a less competitive league.

They do have a good academy and a good transfer policy, but so do we and they have also signed flops in the last few years (Immobile, Ramos, Kampl and to an extent Schrurrle so far)

Don't get me wrong they have done well in 5 of the last 7 years, but they only have 1 team with the financial muscle and pull which 4 of the teams in our league have.