The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 9th June 2016

[dagraham]

Why do people have such an aversion to quick players? They are not all like Lennon and Walker.

Speed is an asset for any player and the fact that Batshuyi has plenty of assists suggests he's far more than a "speed merchant".

 

[dagraham]

I think Bats has been a smokescreen all along and Janssen is the one Poch has always wanted.

That's not because that just happens to be what you want is it? .

 

[SpartanSpur]

Do you really believe their ethnicity makes them predisposed to success? They all come from different leagues / backgrounds.

Sounds more like a country has produced good strikers recently and not Belgian strikers will all work out and Dutch ones won't.

Your initial statement was correct, every signing is a lottery. I just choose to make statements occasionally without disclaimers covering such obvious retorts. The reasons listed were why I feel like Batshuayi is less of a gamble.

In addition to this (and were implied if not clearly laid out) are the power and mobility of Batshuayi and his ability to create goals off of his own back. Janssen looks a well rounded forward but a poacher, and without the superior physical attributes it's hard to tell if his goal scoring would transfer to tougher opposition than Eredivisie defences. The 3 Belgian strikers I mentioned are all Belgian with strong physical profiles and also of black origin, I can't deny that, but I feel the shared overall attributes of the 3 players (not just creed and colour) make Batshuayi more likely to succeed quickly in the PL.

The likes of Luuk De Jong, Afonso Alves and Mateja Kezman (even Dirk Kuyt in goalscoring terms) are all too fresh in my mind, even alongside the recent success stories from the Eredivisie in RVN, RVP and more recently Pelle. I just don't lend much weight to goalscoring records in the Eredivisie. Janssen still looks a talented striker from what I've seen and could be a success, but I think he could have a shock when adapting to the new league in terms of goal scoring chances.

Do you think Janssen is more likely to succeed in the PL than Batshuayi? or vice versa? or is it completely down to chance?

 

[Nigel Spinal]

Why do people have such an aversion to quick players? They are not all like Lennon and Walker.

Speed is an asset for any player and the fact that Batshuyi has plenty of assists suggests he's far more than a "speed merchant".

Because we are a possession side, rather than an on-the-break side, so forward players who rely on pace over intelligence are less useful for us (other than having a Njie on the bench to stretch things on occasions).

 

[Sweech]

Your initial statement was correct, every signing is a lottery. I just choose to make statements occasionally without disclaimers covering such obvious retorts. The reasons listed were why I feel like Batshuayi is less of a gamble.

In addition to this (and were implied if not clearly laid out) are the power and mobility of Batshuayi and his ability to create goals off of his own back. Janssen looks a well rounded forward but a poacher, and without the superior physical attributes it's hard to tell if his goal scoring would transfer to tougher opposition than Eredivisie defences. The 3 Belgian strikers I mentioned are all Belgian with strong physical profiles and also of black origin, I can't deny that, but I feel the shared overall attributes of the 3 players (not just creed and colour) make Batshuayi more likely to succeed quickly in the PL.

The likes of Luuk De Jong, Afonso Alves and Mateja Kezman (even Dirk Kuyt in goalscoring terms) are all too fresh in my mind, even alongside the recent success stories from the Eredivisie in RVN, RVP and more recently Pelle. I just don't lend much weight to goalscoring records in the Eredivisie. Janssen still looks a talented striker from what I've seen and could be a success, but I think he could have a shock when adapting to the new league in terms of goal scoring chances.

Do you think Janssen is more likely to succeed in the PL than Batshuayi? or vice versa? or is it completely down to chance?

I don't think it's chance I just don't think it has anything to do with the ethnicity of your birth.

 

[SpartanSpur]

Because we are a possession side, rather than an on-the-break side, so forward players who rely on pace over intelligence are less useful for us (other than having a Njie on the bench to stretch things on occasions).

A possession side that also likes to win the ball high up the pitch and effectively counter attack in transition. Pace can be very effective in this instance if attached to the right type of player.

 

[Detspurs]

You could argue that Batshuayi's Belgian team mates have all worked out quite well in the PL, Lukaku, Benteke and more recently Origi. Certainly not as big flops as the likes of De Jong and Afonso Alves. French league also seems a little bit more compatible with the PL also (I do appreciate we have some ex Dutch league players in our squad).

1. Alves is Brazilian.
2. Your argument is pretty much the same as saying french strikers are a big risk, using David Bellion and Remy Cabella as examples.
3. There is little doubt we have seen more world class strikers from Netherlands than from Belgium in the PL.

 

[SpartanSpur]

I don't think it's chance I just don't think it has anything to do with the ethnicity of your birth.

I do agree with that. The fact that strikers of a similar profile were successful over here also were countrymen made it easy for me to group them together in such away, as was grouping unsuccessful striking imports from the Eredivisie.

I am not saying any striker of similar ethic origin is a guaranteed success on that basis alone. That should be obvious quite frankly.

The crux of my points were:-
A) I think Batshuayi's attributes make him more likely to succeed.
B) We should be wary of Eredivisie goalscoring records as they do not translate well.

 

[Tweddled]

Hoping for some lovely birthday ITK today!! Maybe even a signing? Nope, that's right...too optimistic

 

[SpartanSpur]

1. Alves is Brazilian.
2. Your argument is pretty much the same as saying french strikers are a big risk, using David Bellion and Remy Cabella as examples.
3. There is little doubt we have seen more world class strikers from Netherlands than from Belgium in the PL.

I have clarified the points I meant to make above. I don't think anyone on this forum would be blind enough to suggest ethnicity or departing league alone leads to guaranteed success or failure. Which is the stick I'm being beaten with, probably fairly in the context of the post. I think it 100% should be taken into consideration however, but as always the player's attributes are by far the most important.

Plenty of quality players have come out of the Eredivisie, the technical ability of a lot of the players over there is superior to most. There have however also been some very average players, such as those I mentioned, that have been over-rated by their goal return which does not always translate well.

Janssen looks a very good option but I have less confidence in him, due to the fact that he doesn't seem to have the attributes to create chances for himself, and despite seeming to be a lethal finisher, we as a team have a way of strangling the type of supply their crave, which can lead to dropped confidence, and therefore the removal of a key strength.

I'm Batshuayi>>Janssen - I think Janssen would be a good signing if he's the one but I think he brings less to the table and is more of a risk. Which is evidenced partly by the difference in price and wages.

 

[yido_number1]

I have clarified the points I meant to make above. I don't think anyone on this forum would be blind enough to suggest ethnicity or departing league alone leads to guaranteed success or failure. Which is the stick I'm being beaten with, probably fairly in the context of the post. I think it 100% should be taken into consideration however, but as always the player's attributes are by far the most important.

Plenty of quality players have come out of the Eredivisie, the technical ability of a lot of the players over there is superior to most. There have however also been some very average players, such as those I mentioned, that have been over-rated by their goal return which does not always translate well.

Janssen looks a very good option but I have less confidence in him, due to the fact that he doesn't seem to have the attributes to create chances for himself, and despite seeming to be a lethal finisher, we as a team have a way of strangling the type of supply their crave, which can lead to dropped confidence, and therefore the removal of a key strength.

I'm Batshuayi>>Janssen - I think Janssen would be a good signing if he's the one but I think he brings less to the table and is more of a risk. Which is evidenced partly by the difference in price and wages.

I think more has been made of Batshuayi than he actually is. We were linked last year and people said he was raw and I still think he is. He is a bit more athletic than Janssen but I don't think he is a more intelligent footballer and I don't see that he can create something out of nothing.

When you say about him being a player that needs players to create chances for him you are obviously matching him to Soldado. They are clearly different prospects and types of players. Janssen is a similar height to soldado but he has much more physical presence and at his age is still developing into an adults body. Soldado was about 10kg lighter and more prone to being bullied off the ball. Soldado suffered a massive loss of confidence with us and was missing loads of sitters. Its possible Janssen could have the same but so could anyone. With Eriksen and Lamela in this team playing well I'd fancy Janssen to get loads of opportunities.

Fact is we could still sign them both with the wages being mentioned and I think Trix alluded to that. For the money being quoted I'd rather take a punt on Janssen and strengthen other parts of the squad as well rather than sign Batshuayi and compromise with cheaper options else where.

 

[chinaman]

Very promising news - let's hope that we can get these done ASAP and then we can all relax and enjoy our summer!

After that, we'll have nearly 2 months sitting there scratching our balls and yearn for Bales'return.

 

[dagraham]

Because we are a possession side, rather than an on-the-break side, so forward players who rely on pace over intelligence are less useful for us (other than having a Njie on the bench to stretch things on occasions).

We are not Barcelona (and even they demonstrated against Arsenal the value of the counter attack). Just because we like to dominate possession and press high up the pitch there are plenty of times during 90 minutes where we are pushed back and need to exploit the space on the break. We will not be going to the top teams in Europe in the CL and pinning them back in their own 18 yard box I can assure you.
Even against West Brom at home before they equalized they were pushing us back, but we unable to counter attack effectively. We hit plenty of long balls as well under Poch without the pace and power to make the most of them.

Besides, speed is not only an asset on the counter, it can be vital in and around the penalty area and the idea that quick players automatically lack intelligence is not true. A team needs to have more than one string to it's bow and pace and power is an extremely effective weapon in football and especially the PL.

Simply dismissing quick players is very short sighted thinking. I suppose if Bale was available you wouldn't want him because he's a "speed merchant"?

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

Why do people have such an aversion to quick players?


I agree 100%. How could you be averse to the pace of Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang.. Yes please

 

[Singaspursofsixspence]

Hoping for some lovely birthday ITK today!! Maybe even a signing? Nope, that's right...too optimistic

Congrats fella, another year on.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Hoping for some lovely birthday ITK today!! Maybe even a signing? Nope, that's right...too optimistic

Woohoo, another year closer to dying . Happy birthday buddy

 

[SpartanSpur]

I think more has been made of Batshuayi than he actually is. We were linked last year and people said he was raw and I still think he is. He is a bit more athletic than Janssen but I don't think he is a more intelligent footballer and I don't see that he can create something out of nothing.

When you say about him being a player that needs players to create chances for him you are obviously matching him to Soldado. They are clearly different prospects and types of players. Janssen is a similar height to soldado but he has much more physical presence and at his age is still developing into an adults body. Soldado was about 10kg lighter and more prone to being bullied off the ball. Soldado suffered a massive loss of confidence with us and was missing loads of sitters. Its possible Janssen could have the same but so could anyone. With Eriksen and Lamela in this team playing well I'd fancy Janssen to get loads of opportunities.

Fact is we could still sign them both with the wages being mentioned and I think Trix alluded to that. For the money being quoted I'd rather take a punt on Janssen and strengthen other parts of the squad as well rather than sign Batshuayi and compromise with cheaper options else where.

I did admit that I think he could be a good signing for us. I've made some very positive observations in the player thread. I must admit we could now be creating more chances for a striker of that ilk with different players to the Soldado era. I still don't think it's our strongest point by any stretch, as I still think we rely on individual goals, and still take more long shots than we put crosses in for example.

And from the compilation of Batshuayis goals I've seen he certainly has scored a greater variety, including some that were definitely created from nothing using his pace, power and sharp shooting. This sort of play is more translatable to any team and opposition defence than the kind of goals Janssen scores, although as someone who played the position myself, I'm still a big fan of a goal poacher/penalty box finisher.

It's more that with the JJ ITK that it's one or the other, it's made me realise how much more I want to see Batshauyi in. I think Janssen is good insurance for Kane as has similar attributes, but Batshuayi has scope to offer more, such as plan B off the bench, or Jay-rod style WF play (with a bit of coaching). The fact they both bring different things is why I'd much prefer both and sticking with our current AM options.

 

[johnbowel]

Because we are a possession side, rather than an on-the-break side, so forward players who rely on pace over intelligence are less useful for us (other than having a Njie on the bench to stretch things on occasions).

We don't really have much choice. We are a possession side because we have no pace and can't do much else. This is the flipside of that argument.

Personally, I half agree in that I think we need forward positional sense, and an inclination to make runs more than just pace but add pace into that and it's ideal. Aubemeyang and Reus made us look about as dangerous as a dead tortoise by comparison. That was a real eye opener.

Hazard too, against Chelsea. Looked a thousand times more dangerous than anything any of our players can offer, if I'm honest, in half an hour, and it was depressing. Mahrez bossed the league by combining quick feet and pace.

We just have to do so much more to look dangerous, or work the same chance a bit of pace creates with ease, and it's such a struggle for us, defences get in position, in numbers. No coincidence Dortmund have Reus Aubemeyang and now Dembele and that young Turkish bloke.

I don't want brainless pace, but I don't want any more bloody static number 10s who can't beat players, or slow intelligent players. Watching the decline of Spain into turgid anti-football parallel to that of Villa and Torres, and the rise of Bayern with Robben/Ribery over Barca was a lesson in the huge difference it makes having goalscorers and pace... weapons as well as circuitry. Umm. or something.

 

[johnbowel]

Incidentally, is Batshuayi even that fast? He doesn't look slow but not seen much real pace in his youtubes...

Embolo looks ideal

 

[Chris Flynn]

JJ saying 'no chance' to getting both Bats and Janssen.

Batshuayi>>Janssen for me, we will sign the cheaper one though.

Janssen looks a great talent but also doesn't offer anything different to Kane. Bats can cover and also add pace and power, making him a good sub (9 goals off the bench last year) and front 2/plan B option, not just a backup.

Dutch strikers are a bit of a lottery too.

To be fair strikers from holland are a lottery, dutch strikers are a success the vast majority of the time. Theres a difference