Zokora isn't the player we hoped.

[Andy]

If you could put Zokora's workrate and passion into Huddlestones body then we would have a truly great midfielder,That said Zokora's passing isn't that great but where he makes up for it is in his covering play when people are out of position he is the first one to chase back out of our midfield when you see Huddlestone wandering back by the halfway line,
He's been one of our better players this season and has managed to get people who were previously slating the guy actually admitting how much he does do for the team.

 

[nidge]

I have merged this with the last Zokora thread because at this rate we will end up with a Zokora thread every other day and will clog the forum up and to be honest Zokora is hardly the only player that deserves criticism at the moment.

 

[Andy]

I have merged this with the last Zokora thread because at this rate we will end up with a Zokora thread every other day and will clog the forum up and to be honest Zokora is hardly the only player that deserves criticism at the moment.

*cough Defoe cough*

 

[sparx100]

This is going back to the Graham era I don't believe I have seen a worse midfielder don on our beloved spurs shirt week after week. This man seems to be every where on the pitch when you watch him play but never in his own position whenever we need the defensive midfielder to close down the man taking the shot from outside the area he has chased the ball somewhere else so the opposition have free reign in midfield. The man gives the ball away with about 40% passes while he can not do the passes in the other 60% that find players in dangerous positions. His shot is as bad as Freund's but freund kept to his position while playing his b*****'s off. While if you question what he can actually do is tackle but half the time he has committed himself and not even thought about it being the right situation to do so. Now lets talk about his driving runs are brilliant if at the end of it a spurs' player is within five yards of him absolutely pointless if not because he has just given the ball away and the opposition is on the counter attack. The big question is why was this player signed a replacement for the international class carrick when he's barely relegation from the premiership class.

Spursking I know you are going to comment on this because you consider him to be a footballing god but come on take off your rose tinted glasses and see him for the waste of space he is.

I think that the excuses of getting adapted to the premiership have got to go now - he has had long enough to get used to the football style, however I do wonder whether his role is defined. In the game against Birmingham, (particularly in the 2nd half) he had to be more disciplined due to his position and as a result was able to read the game better, pass the ball simply and intercept when required. I think he has looked a lot better when he has had that responsibility on his shoulders.

I do not believe that he is the worst midfielder in the last 7 years (Leonhardsen, Ghaly, Sinton, Murphy, Routledge etc..), and I think with more coaching and definition of role, then he will be excellent. I wish people would stop comparing him to Carrick - its not possible, just accept that he is a different player. For a spurs perspective, we need someone to sweep in front of the back 4 and pass the ball simply to start our next move. Zokora for me needs to cut out the runs and just keep things simple, and not leave his own half.

 

[ultimateloner]

Well noted that Zokora makes amateur mistakes in his passing but all hands should agree that he has covered our fragile defence all season. He is rarely beaten and saves us from counte-attacks. If it wasn't for him Dawson's slow turn would be exposed even more.

frankly we can't leave zokora out from any of our games. He does a good job at the back when we play 343/352 as well...tatically important for us.

 

[SpurSince57]

He had a 94% passing success rate on Sunday. Even if most of them were short-range, that is not to be sniffed at.

 

[double0]

These Zokora threads are really ridiculous when we have such a shambolic back 5. Zokora with certain folks is the cause of our down fall/ is an average player or people appreciate what he does for the team.

Personally the attention should be switched from Zokora and on to the players who've stagnated rapidly to a level unacceptable for top half premiership football...i.e DAWSON and ROBINSON. Both players have been constants in the team over the last 2 season and it comes as no surprise to me the stats befools belief.

How the club of the stature and renewed drive since the arrival of Levy, Jol, Commile and now Ramos have allowed IMO Dawson, Robinson and the rest of the back five to continue without addressing the joke knowing we have injury prone players at the back is a question that should be directed to the men in charge of player transfers.

When I speak with other fans who haven't got the Spurs blinkers on, they tend to appreciate the football we play than refer to our joke of a Goal Keeper and Defensive record which is mainly built around Dawson and not Zokora.

 

[thfcsteff]

These Zokora threads are really ridiculous when we have such a shambolic back 5. Zokora with certain folks is the cause of our down fall/ is an average player or people appreciate what he does for the team.

Personally the attention should be switched from Zokora and on to the players who've stagnated rapidly to a level unacceptable for top half premiership football...i.e DAWSON and ROBINSON. Both players have been constants in the team over the last 2 season and it comes as no surprise to me the stats befools belief.

How the club of the stature and renewed drive since the arrival of Levy, Jol, Commile and now Ramos have allowed IMO Dawson, Robinson and the rest of the back five to continue without addressing the joke knowing we have injury prone players at the back is a question that should be directed to the men in charge of player transfers.

When I speak with other fans who haven't got the Spurs blinkers on, they tend to appreciate the football we play than refer to our joke of a Goal Keeper and Defensive record which is mainly built around Dawson and not Zokora.

Michael Dawson started last season as the Jr to King. He had to take on the full mantle due to King's injury and was tremendous given the partners/every game record. He got injured just before the big KO, and when back, took a few games to find any match-fitness. He came back as THE GREAT HOPE, the SENIOR WHO WAS TO SCHOOL OTHERS when, in truth, he still needed an extra season' schooling himself. He has had to school the inexperienced Younes, had to then play alongside Chimbonda or Zokora sometimes, has a new left-back beside him half the time in Bale, and has a central midfield in front of him that simply cannot offer any real protection/strength, as well as a goalkeeper behind him who appears to be in the midst of a mental crisis.

So given all that, I say, err, great effort Michael Dawson!!!

 

[joey55]

These Zokora threads are really ridiculous when we have such a shambolic back 5. Zokora with certain folks is the cause of our down fall/ is an average player or people appreciate what he does for the team.

Personally the attention should be switched from Zokora and on to the players who've stagnated rapidly to a level unacceptable for top half premiership football...i.e DAWSON and ROBINSON. Both players have been constants in the team over the last 2 season and it comes as no surprise to me the stats befools belief.

How the club of the stature and renewed drive since the arrival of Levy, Jol, Commile and now Ramos have allowed IMO Dawson, Robinson and the rest of the back five to continue without addressing the joke knowing we have injury prone players at the back is a question that should be directed to the men in charge of player transfers.

When I speak with other fans who haven't got the Spurs blinkers on, they tend to appreciate the football we play than refer to our joke of a Goal Keeper and Defensive record which is mainly built around Dawson and not Zokora.

But was the deffensive record so bad when we had a different player screening the back 4? You can't claim Zokora hasn't been a major part in our problems. You only need to look at the last 3 games for that. He was at fault for the first goal against Wham, didn't close down against Aalborg and got beaten in the challenge for the second goal against Brum. I think he's done alot better when not playing in a 442 and have always said he could play in a 3 CM, but there is no point trying to argue that he hasn't been a major factor in our ability to leak goals over goals in the last season 18 months.

As a CM, if you aren't contributing sufficiently going forward, then you have to be pretty brilliant in terms of your deffensive contribution and setting a tempo. Can you really claim Zokora has been? I don't think anyone who tries to suggest this, has a leg to stand on. Thats why i believe he can only play in a 3 CM or as a spare CB. In this role he can be used as a spare man and use his pace to plug gaps. He looked so much better without his usual CM duties in the last few games. Against Wham in the first half we offered nothing with him at the hubb of the team. But when he dropped back his pace became a real asset and Malbranque took his place in CM and we looked much better. This was again evident against Brum, when the Hudd took his place int he middle and straight away started causing problems with his passing, which not only is more varied, but also a higher tempo.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Joey your fucking dillusional mate. You really do believe that Zokora is to blame for everything and not the fact that dawson is a hapless donkey, Robinson a fat flapper and Chimbonda a stylish wanker.

Zokora was to blame for the goal at West Ham and the first v Aalborg ? Joey you are fucking clueless when it comes to football. Zokora may have been an unwilling accessory to a cluster fuck but he was a little way down the que no matter how biased a slant you want to put on it. Just watch the Aalborg goal again and tell me what the fuck Dawson was doing and why he took so long to react to the way play unfolded. or why Lennon and jenas and keane did fuck all as they didn't have the responsibility of leaving another player in a dangerous position that Zokora had and were nearer.

A you seriously telling us that you think Dawson is less detrimental to this team than Zokora ?

 

[tooey]

In my humble opinion (which i suspect will be shot down by some of you more narrow-minded folk) Zokora is not a BAD player... but neither is he GOOD. Why does a spurs player have to be "amazing" or "shit"? Yeah hes not had the best of seasons and a lot of our poor performances have highlighted the positional niavity he posseses but he does have good games if anyones noticed? Its exactly like a game of poker if you lose its due to the cards you were given *a specific player* and if you win its down to your brilliance as a whole *the team*. He is a decent squad player and not a bad CM/DM. I'll openly admit we payed of the top for him but whats done is done. We could have a lot worse players playign for us. So just because hes not patrick viera it doesnt mean he's "shit". Hes just simply not world class. For a team challenging for honours hes not good enough but we just aint that guys.

 

[joey55]

Joey your fucking dillusional mate. You really do believe that Zokora is to blame for everything and not the fact that dawson is a hapless donkey, Robinson a fat flapper and Chimbonda a stylish wanker.

Zokora was to blame for the goal at West Ham and the first v Aalborg ? Joey you are fucking clueless when it comes to football. Zokora may have been an unwilling accessory to a cluster fuck but he was a little way down the que no matter how biased a slant you want to put on it. Just watch the Aalborg goal again and tell me what the fuck Dawson was doing and why he took so long to react to the way play unfolded. or why Lennon and jenas and keane did fuck all as they didn't have the responsibility of leaving another player in a dangerous position that Zokora had and were nearer.

A you seriously telling us that you think Dawson is less detrimental to this team than Zokora ?

Just becuse you don't rate Dawson, doesn't mean other players aren't also at fault. I didn' say Zokora was at the only one at fault for those goals, but undeniably he was at fault for each of them. Double0 is suggesting that our efforts should be aimed at blaming Dawson and not Zokora, when i've simply pointed out this is very difficult to do, when you look at the facts and used the last 3 games to highlight that. Do you disagree that he wa at fault for each of the goals? I'm not saying he was the only one who made errors, but he certainly made a detrimental contribution and is a common dominator. To suggest a player was at fault, doesn't mean another wasn't aswell. Also witht he Aalborgh goal (which i don't have unfortunately), i'm pretty sure one of their players got ahead of our midfielders and made a run into the box, so Dawson couldn't really have been asked to close down. It was definitely Zokora he was moving towards, yet Zokora didn't even move. This was clearly highlightd on at half time by ITV and i can remember that for sure. I'll see if i can find the goal on youtube to take a close look.

 

[finch101]

Dawson is maintaining a serious lack of form, granted hes had next to nothing besides him but in individual situations where his partner is not to blame he hasn't replicated the same form as last season. I love his attitude, seems like a great bloke but what Ramos has seen of him in his era cant of created the best of opinions of Dawson as a defender.

Didier Zokora- So naive for a player in his position, i know especially yesterday it must of been difficult for him (3 man midfield) but in general he shows no bite in the tackle loses too many 50-50's, his positional sense is horrific, cant pass any further than 10 yards and certainly cant shot! Granted great engine, Great pace, but what does he really offer, one thing is for sure tho, tis certainly not value for money!!!

 

[joey55]

Dawson is maintaining a serious lack of form, granted hes had next to nothing besides him but in individual situations where his partner is not to blame he hasn't replicated the same form as last season. I love his attitude, seems like a great bloke but what Ramos has seen of him in his era cant of created the best of opinions of Dawson as a defender.

Didier Zokora- So naive for a player in his position, i know especially yesterday it must of been difficult for him (3 man midfield) but in general he shows no bite in the tackle loses too many 50-50's, his positional sense is horrific, cant pass any further than 10 yards and certainly cant shot! Granted great engine, Great pace, but what does he really offer, one thing is for sure tho, tis certainly not value for money!!!

I didn't want to mention this as it is getting a bit technical, but he was also at fault for the second goal against Aalborg aswell. It was to do with his positional sense and once again getting dragged out of position. When they countered Zokora as the DM, should have tracked back maintaing a line in the centre of the pitch, but instead he followed a midfield runner, which opened up space for the other midfield runner, in the exact line Zokora, as the DM should have been defending. By the time he realised and went across to get a tackle in, it was too late. This is a great example of how the likes of Carrick and Makelele, despite having nowhere near the speed of Zokora, provide better defensive cover. Their positional play is spot on and their first reaction would have been to hold the central line and track back. It would have been typical of the kind of unnoticed work players like that do. By reading the game and positioning themselves properly, they prevent a lot of goals and we as fans don't always notice or credit them for this sort of thing. It's only noticed when they are gone and suddenly the team they were previously at are a lot more vulnerable.

 

[Andy]

The problem isn't lying with Zokora though is it?No matter who you could put into our central midfield would struggle to protect a backline containing a young inexperienced player like Kaboul,and the fragile headless Dawson,
Yes i did say headless re watch sundays game and watch him and him alone,he is supposed to be the one who has played nearly two and a half seasons in the premier League,
Yet he has this clueless chase the player with the ball and be dragged out of position thing going on with his game,
The reason why he used to be compared to Terry early on was that when he made those mistakes A.King could cover him or B. he won the ball,
That isn't happening now though and it's clear as anything that our defence has been pretty poor whilst he's been there this season,
and it's not a dig at the guy personally but he needs an experienced head alongside him not just now but probably will do for the rest of his career,
But this is a Zokora thread and it's more about him,
He has probably been our best holding midfielder this season,
He covers the defence when out of position,which is a plus but doesn't really offer much to the team going forward,
Huddlestone has this jog back from an attacking thing going on in his head,which leads to other teams counter attacking,
Jenas has impressed me this season and i've never rated him that often,but only for his work rate and the goals he got.
No matter what we say on here though isn't gonna do much apart from debate it for months to come,
The best thing that could happen right now is for a King to get fit and slot Kaboul in front of the back four,for one game and see what happens,alongside Jenas that is.

 

[thfcsteff]

<<Joey your fucking dillusional mate. You really do believe that Zokora is to blame for everything and not the fact that dawson is a hapless donkey, Robinson a fat flapper and Chimbonda a stylish wanker.>>

I see you've chosen to tidily ignore some points I made about Michael Dawson in this thread. Give them a read and see if you still think Dawson is a 'hapless donkey'...Robinson? Yeah, not in the greatest form of his life but far better since Ramos arrived.
Chimbonda a 'stylish wanker'? I presume you're making the point that he pushes forward too much for your liking? Perhaps...perhaps, especially given the current crisis of defensive personnel...


<<Zokora was to blame for the goal at West Ham and the first v Aalborg ? Joey you are fucking clueless when it comes to football. Zokora may have been an unwilling accessory to a cluster fuck but he was a little way down the que no matter how biased a slant you want to put on it. Just watch the Aalborg goal again and tell me what the fuck Dawson was doing and why he took so long to react to the way play unfolded.>>

He is not clueless about football. Perhaps he plays another style, and frankly, I'm with him!!! Zokora shopuld carry, IMO, 50% of the blame for the West Ham goal; made great strides to get back and cover before inexplicably stopping to watch as the ball was slipped through to Solano, who then had the simple task of slipping a pass to the unmarked Cole (Chims was strolling on back at a light trot). If Zokora carries on his run without standing still, Solano either gets challenged, does not get the ball or is forced to take a shot. As for the Aalborg first goal, absolutely Zokora should take a major portion of the blame. Dawson might have done better and come out, but context my friend, the guy knows that if bolts then he leaves himself/possibly the whole side wide open, and with Zokora being about 5 yards closer to the Aalborg player as he starts his run with the ball (as well as facing him) Zokora should be putting in at the very least some effort to get between man and goal. Instead he just fucking stood there with no-one to mark


<<or why Lennon and jenas and keane did fuck all as they didn't have the responsibility of leaving another player in a dangerous position that Zokora had and were nearer.>>


Jenas maybe, though again, Zokora was the DM FACING the player as he advanced, but Lennon and Keano??? You now want attacking players and strikers making tackles from behind when the easy thing would've been for Zokora to stop jumpng up and down on the spot and get in thee himself?


<<A you seriously telling us that you think Dawson is less detrimental to this team than Zokora ?>>

A fine comment. I agree with you. Dawson IS less detrimental!!!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Anybody that thinks that Zokora is causing us more problems than Dawson is an idiot.

Joey if only your microscopic analysis of all things Zokora was applied evenly to others I'd respect your opinion more.

And Carrick was a decent player, but was not the world beater you keep making out. Which is probably why he sometimes doesn't start or is subbed for ManU and why they are not at the top of the league despite having the best defence and atack in the prtemiership.

 

[The Apprentice]

I think they're both sub rate.

Dawson is rubbish. Take away his brave headers and lunges he's really a very mediocre defender. Positionally all over the place, clumsy tackler, bambi on ice with the ball and the inability to pass the ball forward without clubbing it 70 fucking yards. Touch of a baby elepahnt and it bugs the hell out of me. Once all the others are fit, I'd have Dawson as 4th choice CB and hope Juande feels the same.

Zokora isn't as accountable as the defenders but he's pretty damn average. As part of 2 man CM I don't see that he offers enough. Passing, tackling, creativity wise. Just a formidable athlete. Come January, I'm praying we sign a replacement for him.

 

[joey55]

Anybody that thinks that Zokora is causing us more problems than Dawson is an idiot.

Joey if only your microscopic analysis of all things Zokora was applied evenly to others I'd respect your opinion more.

And Carrick was a decent player, but was not the world beater you keep making out. Which is probably why he sometimes doesn't start or is subbed for ManU and why they are not at the top of the league despite having the best defence and atack in the prtemiership.

I've accpeted the defence has serious problems. i did that a very long time ago, way before this season and spoke at length about what needs to be done there. I also defended the team set up resolutely and pointed out that our problems were doen to individual errors, not team set up or coaching. In a thread concerning Zokora, if someone suggests our defensive record is mainly down to certian other players, why not analyze Zokora's role, particuarly when it shows his involvement in 4 of the last 6 goals we conceded. It may sound condesending (for which I apologize) and it may not be true, but to be honest I just don't think you notice things like his failure to track Solano properly or him getting dragged out of position. The thread is about Zokora, so it is very appropriate to analyse his contribution. You don't have to object to everything that points to players, other than those you blame, being at fault. By making very valid points about Zokora's short comings, doesn't mean other players don't also have problems. You should allow youself to learn from other people and take on board things that have been pointed out to you. If you calmed down for a moment and actually took the time to take on board the points being made, then maybe you to would be equally concerned about Zokora. It doesn't mean you have to be any less worried about Dawson.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I suggest you take a peek at the match ratings thread for BHam. I think I was possibly the only person to deduct points from Zokora for ducking out of a cross and the actual winning shot.

I was also critical of Ramos's tactics (despite being a strong supporter of his appointment).

I think I have always been pretty realistic about Zokora.

What I have yet to see are 27 different threads of 6/7 pages analysing Dawsons deficiencies. I think Zokora has strengths and attributes and is often pretty good. I raly struggle to see the positives that Dawson brings to a premiership team. He is average in the air. Terrible when players run at him. Reads the game poorly, covers ground slowly and reacts slowly. Basically the opposite of what you actually need to be a premiership defender.