Zokora isn't the player we hoped.

[nidge]

It is hardly Zokora's fault if he does the job given him but then is let down by strikers that wanted to mark each other or defenders that could earn an alternative living as circus clowns.

Why is it you want to blame any other player for Zokora's deficiencies apart from the man himself? It's seems that you have a blind spot's for Zokora's weaknesses in the same way that some on here have a blind spot for Zokora's strengths. I try to honestly state what I see when watching a match. If I think Zokora is poor (like in the first half last night) I will say so but, in the same turn if I think he has played well (like in the second half last night) I will also say so.

Secondly, it seems to be Ok for you to compare Zokora to jenas for your purpose but not for me to compare Zokora with anyone else.

I have compared Zokora to someone who plays in the same position as him. Yet you want to compare him to a defender. Two completely different positions so comparing them is hardly an accurate way of proving a player is doing there job to the required standard.

You are a hypocrite. And an unobservant hypocrite as well.

Nice of you to resort to name calling though. :up:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

OK I've just watched the game again tonight and can catagorically say that Zokora played Ok first half. Or - just to pre-empt the "we need better than OK" - he played as well as anybody and better than a few - Berbatov, Keane, Dawson, Lee, Chimbonda, Robinson to name 6. he was bloody good second half and was crucial to the comeback. But I can understand why he got stick now. Andy Townsend (that purvayor of footballing tactical genius) decided to blame Zokora at half time. Obviously that made the lemmings minds up. Easy eh, why TF think for yourselves.
Lets ignore Bale needlessly giving he ball away for the second and Dawson stepping over it and Robinson coming and hesitating and Chimbonda casually deciding he might get round to marking the danger man in the middle.

As DFF and even SS have pointed out, the fact that Keane decided "nah fuck it" and jenas and lennon who were much nearer and not marking a player in a dangerous central position (who the scorer would almost certainly have passed to if Zokora had sprinted 10 yards to do something three players much closer couldn't) seems to not merit a thread. The worst culprit was probably Dawson though. look at his positioning and reaction to the danger. Why the fuck is he standing on our 6 yard line. Why does he take so long to get anywhere near the player. It is almost identical to Noble's goal at West Ham last year. Surely the any opposition player running at the central right of our box should be food and drink for dawson ?


As far as Zokora not being the player you expected, well why TF would you expect a top drawer CM to cost 6-8 mil aged 26. Carrick cost 18 mil ?

We have a defence that is fucking laughable. Dawson is a championship defender who does not have the pace or brain to cope with top flight strikers. Chimbonda just doesn't want to be in our box, Kaboul is 20 and playing his first season, Bale is 18 and playing his first prem season. Berbatov and keane were the worst players on the pitch first half. Berbatov has been far more inconsistant and contributes far less of the 100% required than Zokora for more games.

Zokora has actually played well for most of this season. Was probably MOTM against Bolton and Liverpool away, but this is ignored because he doesn't play a Hollywood pass once every 10 games.

I know we can do better than Zokora just like we can do better than most of our team. But others contribute far more to our downfall than him.

 

[lukespurs7]

He's looked better lately, and 2nd half vs Aalborg he was IMO along with Bale MOTM. He really seems to care for our club and give 110% weather he's quite good enough or not, i'm still not really sure, if Ramos can get the 'world cup' zokora out of him we could have quite a player on our hands, if not, we may as well sell him and start looking for a decent DM. I personally would like Poulsen or Xavi (unrealistic) if possible.

 

[SpurSince57]

I wasn't particularly swayed by Townsend's analysis, but it hardly laid the blame on Zokora alone. It just pointed out a chain-reaction of individual errors which has been the story of our season so far, starting with Salty, Gardner and Chimbonda at Sunderland.

And no, he wasn't any worse than several others in the first half (although I have to ask if you've just lumped Robbo in out of habit); he was, however, a whole shedload better in the second. I don't know what Poyet sprinkled on his orange, but it sure seemed to work. Or maybe Juande gave him a bollocking and a precise job description which he carried out as well as you could wish.

But you're still harping on about one incident, and missing the point. What did we expect for £6m-£8m? I'm not sure. But you yourself don't claim that he's been anything better than OK overall, which isn't too far from what I've said. And yes, I know I've said he's been a bit of a dud, but in terms of his being a truly adequate replacement for Carrick and/or Davids, isn't that what he's been? Yes, he's had some good games, some OK ones, and some frankly pisspoor ones. Annoyingly for me, he's shown in flashes that he could be real quality, the same as Ghaly (except on a more consistent basis). But mostly, that's been where his pace and tackling ability have been utilised in a clearly defined role.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes, you are.

His first half was no more terrible than the rest of the players'. And his second half was a damned sight better than most.

Don't waste your breath, though. I already know there are people who'll bash Zokora come rain or shine. Same with Stalteri, Lee, Jenas and on and on...

Thank you.
Glad I could amuse you.
Now, an education on my viewpoint you muppet...

I have consistently held the door open and refused to judge him, going so far as to allow him a whole season to transition.
Here's the problem; he has NOT gone anywhere since he arrived. he has NOT improved. He has stood still.Now, PERSONALLY speaking, I hope the current coaching staff can find the player in there and bring him out, but I seriously wonder if he will be the midfielder he can be.

He was SHIT in the first-half. That is a fact. So were others, but off the back of his inexplicable decision to stop tracking back on Sunday, his decision to join Daws in sitting off an advancing midfielder and then not even get his body between shot and goal was diabolical. Sorry. A playground error born of lack of concentration. His first ball in midfield is nearly ALWAYS behind him or lateral. Thus we don't always build as quickly as we could. When he is in defense/ a very deep defensive position, he has only one direction to play, and it suits him very well...

So I have not bashed him 'come rain or shine' I have simply pointed out a fact.
Trust me, if Ramos hadn't recognized it, he'd not have moved Zokora (for the record I had told my mate that Lee needed to be subbed to accomodate that change among others)...

Finally, for the record, I am not a Jermain Jenas slagger in any way, shape or form.

 

[thfcsteff]

... But I can understand why he got stick now. Andy Townsend (that purvayor of footballing tactical genius) decided to blame Zokora at half time. Obviously that made the lemmings minds up. Easy eh, why TF think for yourselves...

No Andy Townshend heard by me, this is the first I've known of it...

The fact is, he was clueless in the first-half. WHy is that such a terrible thing to say? He was also in a direct position to prevent a goal and did not advance himself to a place where he could stop it.
What is not clear about that?
I, too, watched the game again the following day and it simply strengthened what I saw. Still, some did not see him as giving up on Sunday, instead blaming Kaboul solely for what was an unlucky incident/error that, thanks to others, turned into a goal.

Your comment about Dawson is revealing. he was having a pig's ear until Ramos came in. Since things have become more organized he has been close to his old form. You forget that he, too, is young and could certainly do with experience beside him, or even a consistent CB partner!!!!

And finally, say WTF you like about Dawson and Kaboul, but in 5 games together under Ramos we have let in three goals when they both been on the pitch so there's something to be said about letting two guys play together for a period of games (saving Ledley's return of course, but I'm not holding my breath for that)

The unbearable truth here is that it's much harder to harness this defence (injuries and all) when you play both Bale and Chimbonda, as both are bordering on reckless. I think it's the price you pay, especially for Bale who is simply such a superb attacking player that I am prepared to wait and watch his defensive skills improve...Chims? Look, if we could get Alves (ha ha) by by...

 

[antthe]

one thing Zakora has got is love for the club, and for that he gets my respect.

 

[DFF]

Now, an education on my viewpoint you muppet...

:lol: I think i'd prefer an education from SK on his viewpoint. Still...

(I'm glad you're amusing me too, by the way.)

Trust me, if Ramos hadn't recognized it, he'd not have moved Zokora

Zokora was not moved because of any of his frailties. He was moved slightly to accommodate for the loss of a defender. Did you not think it a bit too coincidental that Zokora's position changed when we took a defender off?

(for the record I had told my mate that Lee needed to be subbed to accomodate that change among others)...

:shrug:

...?

The point of the substitution wasn't to accommodate a change to Zokora's position amongst others. His change of position was to accommodate the substitution. The objective was to get Darren Bent on the pitch without losing a striker or a midfielder. The best way to do this was to take Lee off, move our first choice RB, Chimbonda, to his normal position and let Zokora play as a spare CB as necessary.

Finally, for the record, I am not a Jermain Jenas slagger in any way, shape or form.

Didn't say you were. Why do you specifically choose Jenas, though? I think you're betraying the fact that you'll go as far as to gloss over his mistakes.

He was also in a direct position to prevent a goal and did not advance himself to a place where he could stop it.
What is not clear about that?

Here we go. Didn't take long. No mention of Jenas or that he was in fact in a direct position to prevent a goal as well. Keane? Dawson? All a part of the comedy of errors that lead to the goal. You cannot merely tell the part of the tale that suits you.

 

[thfcsteff]

:lol: I think i'd prefer an education from SK on his viewpoint. Still...

(I'm glad you're amusing me too, by the way.)>>

I see how it is. You're the 'all-knowing' and we're not worthy? Ah well, us mere mortals can at least try to state our case to someone as obviously superior...



<<Zokora was not moved because of any of his frailties. He was moved slightly to accommodate for the loss of a defender. Did you not think it a bit too coincidental that Zokora's position changed when we took a defender off?>>

Thank you for that.
I'd never have known.


<<The point of the substitution wasn't to accommodate a change to Zokora's position amongst others. His change of position was to accommodate the substitution. The objective was to get Darren Bent on the pitch without losing a striker or a midfielder. The best way to do this was to take Lee off, move our first choice RB, Chimbonda, to his normal position and let Zokora play as a spare CB as necessary.>>

Really? Wow. How on earth did you work that out?
Seriously chum, if you think that was beyond 'MMV' (mere mortal vision) then you're mistaken. I was trying to keep my observations in this thread on Zokora, thus I noted that Ramos, rather than turf him off at HT and immediately replace him with KPB, decided to play him to his ever-emerging strength which was as a defensive shield in front of a back three. Essentially he WAS a fourth defender, as he played deeper than our full-backs for the entire second-half and even after we switched back to 4-4-2. It was not a 'slight' move mate, he was given a new position and a new role. Again, it is painfully clear that when he has only one direction to go with the ball (i.e. when he's paying in defense) his play is much much better.


<<Didn't say you were. Why do you specifically choose Jenas, though? I think you're betraying the fact that you'll go as far as to gloss over his mistakes.>>

Tedious. That is why I said 'for the record' and not 'in answer to your accusation'...and who's mistakes are you talking about now? You've lost me. Are you saying Jenas made mistakes last night? Or are we still discussing Zokora? Pretend I'm thick (something you apparently find easy enough) and engage me...


<<Here we go. Didn't take long. No mention of Jenas or that he was in fact in a direct position to prevent a goal as well. Keane? Dawson? All a part of the comedy of errors that lead to the goal. You cannot merely tell the part of the tale that suits you.>>

Ah yes, you WERE talking about Jenas...and which goal was he in a direct position to prevent? Did you also forget the one he did prevent with a perfectly executed tackle in the box? Keane could be held partially accountable, but he was BEHIND the guy as he started his run, he shepherded him towards two defenders, both of whom could reasonably be expected to make challenges (would you want a striker's tackle from behind just outside the box? Nah, didn't think so)...fact remains that as 57 said yes, Daws could perhaps have come out to block, but he's already trying to feel his way into the game with regards to where the fuck his latest CB partner is, and Zokora is standing there, no-one to watch, staring at the guy and ball-watching instead of moving into him to challenge.

Is this enough a of a rounded explanation?

Finally, answer me this (you haven't previously, perhaps you have no answer?)
His first ball in midfield is nearly ALWAYS behind him or lateral. Thus we don't always build as quickly as we could.
And his positional sense as a CM is very poor.
Trust me, there are people at the club who are disappointed at his lack of progress versus potential, and I think everyone hopes he can find both before it's to late...

 

[guiltyparty]

I wasn't particularly swayed by Townsend's analysis, but it hardly laid the blame on Zokora alone. It just pointed out a chain-reaction of individual errors which has been the story of our season so far, starting with Salty, Gardner and Chimbonda at Sunderland.

And no, he wasn't any worse than several others in the first half (although I have to ask if you've just lumped Robbo in out of habit); he was, however, a whole shedload better in the second. I don't know what Poyet sprinkled on his orange, but it sure seemed to work. Or maybe Juande gave him a bollocking and a precise job description which he carried out as well as you could wish.

But you're still harping on about one incident, and missing the point. What did we expect for £6m-£8m? I'm not sure. But you yourself don't claim that he's been anything better than OK overall, which isn't too far from what I've said. And yes, I know I've said he's been a bit of a dud, but in terms of his being a truly adequate replacement for Carrick and/or Davids, isn't that what he's been? Yes, he's had some good games, some OK ones, and some frankly pisspoor ones. Annoyingly for me, he's shown in flashes that he could be real quality, the same as Ghaly (except on a more consistent basis). But mostly, that's been where his pace and tackling ability have been utilised in a clearly defined role.

Well said. Bored of this argument now. People are consistently ignoring the points actually being made by others just so they can have the final word. Why some are getting so defensive of Zokora and saying no one's blaming Jenas when Jenas gets as much cr*p thrown at him as anyone, I don't know.

 

[sloth]

Juande said it's not about individual players it's the team as a whole and in particular it's the team's balance. Why then do people insist on picking out indvidual events and trying to lay the blame on one player or another? I've already read about four different versions of the first goal with four different players as the main culprit, there's probably truth in all of them which would seem to make Juande's point a bit better than anyone elses.

 

[Bulletspur]

I can't understand that you can't see Zokora's talents. It is strange for me that nobody can see his qualities.....

Ramos sees it, and that is good to see.

Lend us your specs then......

 

[N10toN17]

I think the general consensus is that Zokora is an avarage player, but I do agree with bc that he has hardly warranted a 4 page thread after the Aalborg game when he was one of our better performers, I can think of a few other players far more deserving (defenders).

 

[Bulletspur]

He is not that talented in way of his positioning, dictating the game, passing as I think he should be as top premiership player in a club striving to go to the top. He is very average and has bad games, but some have had worse, as well as good ones.

Thursday's game saw the best and the worst, the furstrating and the brilliance (you know what I mean) of Zokora all rapped up in one match but.......He will always have my vote because of his attitude. He is not good but he seems as if he would bleed for the club, an attribute that had some of his fellow team members had adopted, we would be sitting higher in the league!! .

 

[nidge]

I think the general consensus is that Zokora is an avarage player, but I do agree with bc that he has hardly warranted a 4 page thread after the Aalborg game when he was one of our better performers, I can think of a few other players far more deserving (defenders).

He was only one of the better performers in the second half after he was pushed back to centre back. First half he was average.

Don't you think it says a lot that a player that we bought for £8million to play in centre midfield actually looks more accomplished as a centre back?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I wasn't particularly swayed by Townsend's analysis, but it hardly laid the blame on Zokora alone. It just pointed out a chain-reaction of individual errors which has been the story of our season so far, starting with Salty, Gardner and Chimbonda at Sunderland.

And no, he wasn't any worse than several others in the first half (although I have to ask if you've just lumped Robbo in out of habit); he was, however, a whole shedload better in the second. I don't know what Poyet sprinkled on his orange, but it sure seemed to work. Or maybe Juande gave him a bollocking and a precise job description which he carried out as well as you could wish.

But you're still harping on about one incident, and missing the point. What did we expect for £6m-£8m? I'm not sure. But you yourself don't claim that he's been anything better than OK overall, which isn't too far from what I've said. And yes, I know I've said he's been a bit of a dud, but in terms of his being a truly adequate replacement for Carrick and/or Davids, isn't that what he's been? Yes, he's had some good games, some OK ones, and some frankly pisspoor ones. Annoyingly for me, he's shown in flashes that he could be real quality, the same as Ghaly (except on a more consistent basis). But mostly, that's been where his pace and tackling ability have been utilised in a clearly defined role.

What I actually think is that he has been better than OK on many occasions including several this season where he was possibly MOTM. I think that you touched on the problem above. He "looked" better second half because he was fundamentally given a set instruction and proved very able to carry it out. It's when he expected to be a "Davids/Carrick" hybrid that he disapoints people with unrealistic expectations. Does anyone realistically think that you would pick up a player of that nature in his prime for 8m. FFS bale just cost 5-10, Kaboul 8. His biggest problem was that he arrived as Carrick went. He/Jol?commoli in the usual effort to please fans angry at Carrick's departure gave sound bites suggesting this and that, but the truth as I see it, is that Zokora is a decent footballer, with good technique who rarely gives the ball away and goes about his job pretty well most of the time. What I find even more astounding is the amount of criticism he receives compared to other players who are far less proficient at ther jobs.

 

[yanno]

It's when he expected to be a "Davids/Carrick" hybrid that he disapoints people with unrealistic expectations. Does anyone realistically think that you would pick up a player of that nature in his prime for 8m. FFS bale just cost 5-10, Kaboul 8. His biggest problem was that he arrived as Carrick went. He/Jol?commoli in the usual effort to please fans angry at Carrick's departure gave sound bites suggesting this and that, but the truth as I see it, is that Zokora is a decent footballer, with good technique who rarely gives the ball away and goes about his job pretty well most of the time.

Yes, but that begs so many questions. We still don't entirely know the truth about Carrick's departure, and Jol's ghosted book will be interesting, to see if he repeats the claim that Carrick was keen to sign a new contract before Man Utd came knocking.

But, putting that to one side, Jol's side was built around Carrick. Once Carrick went, we had to find a player who could do that job alongside Jenas, OR totally rebuild the team by constructing a brand new CM pairing and selling JJ as well.

We kept JJ, and therefore we needed to sign a player who could perform the Carrick role of screening the back four, provide cover when JJ went box-to-box, and dictate the tempo of our passing. If Zokora was not the player to do this - and based on a season and a half, he isn't - then we should have signed someone else.

 

[joey55]

What I actually think is that he has been better than OK on many occasions including several this season where he was possibly MOTM. I think that you touched on the problem above. He "looked" better second half because he was fundamentally given a set instruction and proved very able to carry it out. It's when he expected to be a "Davids/Carrick" hybrid that he disapoints people with unrealistic expectations. Does anyone realistically think that you would pick up a player of that nature in his prime for 8m. FFS bale just cost 5-10, Kaboul 8. His biggest problem was that he arrived as Carrick went. He/Jol?commoli in the usual effort to please fans angry at Carrick's departure gave sound bites suggesting this and that, but the truth as I see it, is that Zokora is a decent footballer, with good technique who rarely gives the ball away and goes about his job pretty well most of the time. What I find even more astounding is the amount of criticism he receives compared to other players who are far less proficient at ther jobs.

If Dawson had done the equivalent to what Zokora did against Wham then he'd have been criticised badly. No one even mentioned Zokora for a couple of days. Had his non closing down (against aab) not been highlighted on TV, again I doubt anyone would have pointed it out. Zokora gets away with a hell of a lot just to avoid arguments. The truth is, he is poor at his job. But so are the other players criticised on this board ie Dawson et al. If they weren't then we wouldn't be sitting where we are in the league. This is why i don't really understand your defence of our transfer activity. It seems to me you are saying that we can't, or at least will find it difficult to, buy top quality players in the 23-26 age bracket as that is usually when they have fully developed and are at the highest value. I agree with this, but it doesn't excuse paying £8 million for a player who isn't good enough to do the job the coach wants him to.

 

[DFF]

Really? Wow. How on earth did you work that out?
Seriously chum, if you think that was beyond 'MMV' (mere mortal vision) then you're mistaken.

Am i?

(for the record I had told my mate that Lee needed to be subbed to accomodate that change among others)...

Oh, i'm not mistaken. No one needed to be subbed to accommodate the change, because, again, the change was an adjustment to accommodate the substitution. But yeah, after i'd enlightened you the first time around, you MM, you claim you knew all long. :lol:

I noted that Ramos, rather than turf him off at HT and immediately replace him with KPB, decided to play him to his ever-emerging strength which was as a defensive shield in front of a back three. Essentially he WAS a fourth defender, as he played deeper than our full-backs for the entire second-half and even after we switched back to 4-4-2. It was not a 'slight' move mate, he was given a new position and a new role. Again, it is painfully clear that when he has only one direction to go with the ball (i.e. when he's paying in defense) his play is much much better.

You're creating a false option. Why would Ramos even entertain the idea of 'turfing him off' at half time and replace him with KPB? What gave you that idea. KPB was brought on for Berbatov after we'd taken the lead to tighten up the midfield even more. We know Zokora can play the hybrid role as he did it in the previous match. Zokora being 'turfed off' any time after the Bent substitution was never really an option. Especially for a relatively green KPB.

That is why I said 'for the record' and not 'in answer to your accusation'

Even more curious then. If you thought i'd accused you, then fair enough. But, just for the record? Why all of a sudden say you're not a "Jenas slagger in any way, shape or form", of all players then? He wasn't mentioned in your post, yet at the end you felt the need to state that and apparently not in answer to any accusation. Why didn't you got through the whole team and say the same thing. Weird.

which goal was he in a direct position to prevent?

The first. I guess someone didn't pay attention.

Did you also forget the one he did prevent with a perfectly executed tackle in the box?

Oh, so we'll let him off shall we? He stopped what might have been a goal, so we'll let him off when he whiffed out on what was a goal. Pearls of wisdom from manager Steff.

Keane could be held partially accountable, but he was BEHIND the guy as he started his run

Yes, when he started his run. Then he got side by side with the player. He didn't shepherd the player toward anyone, he gave up, unfortunately.

he shepherded him towards two defenders, both of whom could reasonably be expected to make challenges

Erm, there were three people. Jenas, Zokora and Dawson.

I think that comment you made about Jenas 'for the record' is becoming ever clearer.

fact remains that as 57 said yes, Daws could perhaps have come out to block, but he's already trying to feel his way into the game with regards to where the fuck his latest CB partner is, and Zokora is standing there, no-one to watch, staring at the guy and ball-watching instead of moving into him to challenge.

Is this enough a of a rounded explanation?

No, because you forgot Jenas and excused away every other culprit but Zokora. Which isn't surprising at this point.

Finally, answer me this (you haven't previously, perhaps you have no answer?)
His first ball in midfield is nearly ALWAYS behind him or lateral. Thus we don't always build as quickly as we could.

First of all, that's your assertion. You have to prove it.

Second of all, you show lack of understanding of the role he occupies. When will people figure out he's not a like for like replacement of Carrick (only a handful of players in the world are...). He's not meant to make searching passes forward or anything other than a 100% pass to safely distribute the ball to our attacking channels. If he plays a ball behind him, it's because there isn't a 100% pass on anywhere else. We can't afford to lose the ball in such a key area by making less than certain passes. Those lateral balls you complain so much about are generally to to our FB's or LM/RM who then make searching runs forward and/or initiate an attack. A damned sight better than just hoofing it forward or trying risky passes just so we can get it forward even quicker.

It's funny, because there are many holes you can pick in his game, but you choose to criticise what is requisite of the role he plays.

 

[thfcsteff]

Am i?



Oh, i'm not mistaken. No one needed to be subbed to accommodate the change, because, again, the change was an adjustment to accommodate the substitution. But yeah, after i'd enlightened you the first time around, you MM, you claim you knew all long. :lol:...(EDIT)

Ha ha...I'd just written a long and laborious point-buy-point reply to your 'post'...I read it, I realized I have no idea who you are, how many games you've been to, how long you've been a supporter, whether you play/coahc or not, I realized basically that I have no reason to discuss things with someone as trite and smug as your god self, I further realized you're bringing the worst out of me and finally, I realized that you genuinely, genuinely believe you know more about the game than I do.

Nothing I say will change that perception (that much is evident by the selectivity of your replies) so I'll tell you what. Because in the end of it all I really need to learn to not give a fuck about such matters...

You're right.

Hopefully that makes your life better and now I shall get on with mine.

Enjoy and bye bye...