Zokora isn't the player we hoped.

[joey55]

Second of all, you show lack of understanding of the role he occupies. When will people figure out he's not a like for like replacement of Carrick (only a handful of players in the world are...). He's not meant to make searching passes forward or anything other than a 100% pass to safely distribute the ball to our attacking channels. If he plays a ball behind him, it's because there isn't a 100% pass on anywhere else. We can't afford to lose the ball in such a key area by making less than certain passes. Those lateral balls you complain so much about are generally to to our FB's or LM/RM who then make searching runs forward and/or initiate an attack. A damned sight better than just hoofing it forward or trying risky passes just so we can get it forward even quicker.

.

But is the type of player you are describing here, really a serious option in a 442 Prem team with top 4 ambitions? It sounds to me like you are describing a Makelele type and i don't really see how such a player can be utilised with any real effect in a 442 formation. Even at his pomp, when at Madrid, Makelele played in a 4132. But to play that way you have to have some pretty special players to play the 3 part (at Madrid Figo, Zidane and Solari). To play a pivot or anchor role in a 442 the DM really has to have the ability to run a game, spread the play with a range of passing and set a tempo etc. If not the team becomes slow and predictable. The last two games surely have to be evidence of that. I don't think we really created or even looked like creating anything in the first half. But when moved a more creative player into the middle and dropped Zokora back things looked better (certainly on thursday at least). I've always said Zokora could play in a 3 CM. I think recently this has been proved right. But i can't see how we can realistically expect to compete with the top sides playing a 442 system with such a limited player at the hub of things.

 

[DJS]

Not a massive fan of Zokora although he has been playing better recently.

It would be good if we could get Diaby from Arsenal though as he's quick, athletic and knows how to pass (much as I hate to say as do most players who play for 'them'!).

I'd then look at then selling Zokora in the summer and perhaps getting another midfield in if Huddlestone continues not to improve.

I would however, continue to play Zokora unless he deteriorates again until January and see if he can improve under new management - not saying was Jol's though as loved the man (in a manly way) but different players react to different management styles so he could become the player we all though he would be...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If Dawson had done the equivalent to what Zokora did against Wham then he'd have been criticised badly. No one even mentioned Zokora for a couple of days. Had his non closing down (against aab) not been highlighted on TV, again I doubt anyone would have pointed it out. Zokora gets away with a hell of a lot just to avoid arguments. The truth is, he is poor at his job. But so are the other players criticised on this board ie Dawson et al. If they weren't then we wouldn't be sitting where we are in the league. This is why i don't really understand your defence of our transfer activity. It seems to me you are saying that we can't, or at least will find it difficult to, buy top quality players in the 23-26 age bracket as that is usually when they have fully developed and are at the highest value. I agree with this, but it doesn't excuse paying £8 million for a player who isn't good enough to do the job the coach wants him to.

My point is, and I think I actually said it, was that he is actually better at dointg his job than others are at theirs. He was very, very good against Bolton & liverpool for example (two of the toughest away games) when was the last time Robinson, Dawson, Chimbonda were even close to being very, very good in a game.

We are actually dominating possession in most games this season. That is largely because of our midfield. Now if the strikers had put in 100% effort and the defenders could defend we definately wouldn't be where we are now. In lennon, Malbranque, Bale, Chimbonda we should be creating much more from the flanks and with Jenas getting forward it shouldn't matter if Zokora is brilliant (like Paulson) just as long as he does his job, which by and large he does.

So far this season I would say of all of our regulars only Malbranque, lee, Bale, Jenas & Zokora have actually given consistantly their best performances. Berbatov only started playing 5 games ago. Keane, apart from scoring, has been anonymous, Lennon same as Berbatov and even when he does play well his end product is still a bit wanting, Huddlestone has been pretty poor and Robinson, Dawson and Chimbonda have been pretty awful.

My point was, is and will be that Zokora receives a totally unbalanced amount of stick in comparison with players who are much, much worse at doing what they are supposed to.

And 8 million is actually not a huge amount in todays market for a 26yo international where people like Carrick & Hargreaves fetch twice that.

 

[joey55]

My point is, and I think I actually said it, was that he is actually better at dointg his job than others are at theirs. He was very, very good against Bolton & liverpool for example (two of the toughest away games) when was the last time Robinson, Dawson, Chimbonda were even close to being very, very good in a game.

We are actually dominating possession in most games this season. That is largely because of our midfield. Now if the strikers had put in 100% effort and the defenders could defend we definately wouldn't be where we are now. In lennon, Malbranque, Bale, Chimbonda we should be creating much more from the flanks and with Jenas getting forward it shouldn't matter if Zokora is brilliant (like Paulson) just as long as he does his job, which by and large he does.

So far this season I would say of all of our regulars only Malbranque, lee, Bale, Jenas & Zokora have actually given consistantly their best performances. Berbatov only started playing 5 games ago. Keane, apart from scoring, has been anonymous, Lennon same as Berbatov and even when he does play well his end product is still a bit wanting, Huddlestone has been pretty poor and Robinson, Dawson and Chimbonda have been pretty awful.

My point was, is and will be that Zokora receives a totally unbalanced amount of stick in comparison with players who are much, much worse at doing what they are supposed to.

And 8 million is actually not a huge amount in todays market for a 26yo international where people like Carrick & Hargreaves fetch twice that.

But this if football theory rather than reallity. For the wide players to be truley effetive they need to be released early, to move the opposition team out of shape the midfield passing needs to be quick and varied. Possession is pointless unless it's used well. We keep the ball because of the way the team shapes up and the work we put it in (wether our fans like to acknowledge it or not we were the 4th highest pasing side and top tackling side in the Prem upto a month ago). We should have built on that in the summer by bringing in quality who can do better with the possession we have. Poulsen plays very much part of a controlled CM pairing, that press up and drop back together. He plays alongside good passing players like Renato and Keita. We play a deeper DM and a box to box player, therefore the DM has to be able to set the tempo etc, as Carrick used to. It isn't as simple as keeping possession and giving it easy. If we do that it is too easy for the oppositon players to close us down, our wide players just don't get the room to use the ball. We need passing from the centre that can stretch the oppostion and give our wide and front players the opportunity to be released.

 

[DFF]

Enjoy and bye bye...

:adios:

But is the type of player you are describing here, really a serious option in a 442 Prem team with top 4 ambitions?

First of all, we needed to iron out exactly what type of player he is. Then and only then can we move onto the discussion of whether that is the right type of player for our system, as you have. I'm not arguing that he is suited to our system. Only trying to help people realise what he is and what he isn't. You, acknowledging the type of player he is, have made a reasoned argument why he is destined to fail in our system. As would even Makelele.

I wonder, were it Makelele instead of Zokora here causing consternation amongst many fans, if they'd then all of a sudden be willing to take a closer look at the system rather than simply saying "he's shit".

The conundrum we face now is that we have two players, Huddlestone and Zokora, who combined do a job. The job, more or less, Carrick did alone. The thing is, those Carrick-type players aren't commonplace. And people wonder why Man U paid 18m for him.

 

[N10toN17]

He was only one of the better performers in the second half after he was pushed back to centre back. First half he was average.

Don't you think it says a lot that a player that we bought for £8million to play in centre midfield actually looks more accomplished as a centre back?

Don't disagree with you at all nidge, would just like to see the scrutiny dished out a little more evenly on some of our other underperformers. Yes, I know I could start a thread, but I won't. :shrug:

 

[thfcsteff]

<<I wonder, were it Makelele instead of Zokora here causing consternation amongst many fans, if they'd then all of a sudden be willing to take a closer look at the system rather than simply saying "he's shit".>>

You will not let it go. Why do I find you so aggravating? Because you are a twister. You twist context. I said he was SHIT in the FIRST-HALF and I will further say he was SHIT in the first-half against West Ham and not a whole bunch better in the second.

And now you are now comparing him to Makalele.
Absurd.
Two different players.
One who is absolutely one of the finest his role has ever seen, a proven winner and a man who knows exactly what he is.
Frankly, if we had a sniff of a chance to get him (or Gilberto for that matter) we would not only jump at it, but Didier would be out as a starter.
Makalele has a footballing intelligence that Zokora has not currently developed. I was prepared to give him a season to do so. He hasn't. How much longer do we wait? because he is not, currently, going to help us become what we want to be.

<<The conundrum we face now is that we have two players, Huddlestone and Zokora, who combined do a job. The job, more or less, Carrick did alone. The thing is, those Carrick-type players aren't commonplace. And people wonder why Man U paid 18m for him.>>

I was a Michael Carrick fan, but if you genuinely think we are still trying to play a system designed a Michael Carrick player, then your glasses are foggy. And again, if Tom Huddlestone finds a 94-5 minute engine to complement his sublime passing skills, bye-bye Didier.

The question you asked as to what sort of player Zokora is remains the single most pertinent one IMHO...because frankly, Didier does not know himself, and that is the major, major issue. IF he were able to push on and take advantage of his engine, drive and learn to deliver well-timed, incisive passes (I'm not talking about 'Hollywood', I'm talking about releasing at the right time as opposed to holding onto the ball for too long) then the management would have harder choices to make. As it stands, he is best off as a defensive player, and once we have our first-choice defence fully-fit, this is going to leave very little room for him. Boateng will be preferred in midfield (a tidier, more complete player who already showd at Boro that he can work with Jenas) and Zokora's presence will be off the bench of he's lucky.

Sign Christian Poulson and it's over for him, full-stop.

All IMO.

If you want to debate these points, marvelous. If you want to simply sit and offer glib elitist remarks from the comfort of your gaming chair, then don't bother mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

But this if football theory rather than reallity. For the wide players to be truley effetive they need to be released early, to move the opposition team out of shape the midfield passing needs to be quick and varied. Possession is pointless unless it's used well. We keep the ball because of the way the team shapes up and the work we put it in (wether our fans like to acknowledge it or not we were the 4th highest pasing side and top tackling side in the Prem upto a month ago). We should have built on that in the summer by bringing in quality who can do better with the possession we have. Poulsen plays very much part of a controlled CM pairing, that press up and drop back together. He plays alongside good passing players like Renato and Keita. We play a deeper DM and a box to box player, therefore the DM has to be able to set the tempo etc, as Carrick used to. It isn't as simple as keeping possession and giving it easy. If we do that it is too easy for the oppositon players to close us down, our wide players just don't get the room to use the ball. We need passing from the centre that can stretch the oppostion and give our wide and front players the opportunity to be released.

An excellent post.
It highlights his deficiencies perfectly.
He simply does not know when to pass short, how to pass long and when to release it when he does carry the ball upfield.
He is very, very inconsistent, and is (I imagine) very tough to play alongside.
Poulson is the one player I felt might be within our grasp when Ramos arrived. I mean, Alves would be nice and all, but Poulson would be a great addition PLUS I feel he'd help release JJ to become even more the player he can be and that we're starting to see more and more under Ramos and Poyet.

 

[thfcsteff]

Having re-read someone's comment about those 'lateral passes' Zokora plays often going to wide players who then instigate attacks, nonsense. Generally they only slow the game down, allowing players like Lennon to be double-teamed, and rendering the likes of Bent (when he's playing) at 50% because they end up playing with their backs to goal.

IF Zokora could play in-flow when he receives the ball, if he could either turn and go and pass, or QUICKLY knock the ball 5 yards to the left or right, fine. But watch him. Most of the time an extra touch, most of the time an extra second or two on the ball before he releases it, because he does not have the footballing brain to think ahead fast enough.

Sorry, that simply isn't good enough for me.

Finally, some here have said that others have been equally poor this season and receive less stick. I don't disagree. But this thread was about Zokora, thus why the comments have been largely about him. Again, let's hope Ramos and Poyet can bring out the best in him.

 

[DFF]

You will not let it go. Why do I find you so aggravating? Because you are a twister. You twist context. I said he was SHIT in the FIRST-HALF

And now you are now comparing him to Makalele.
Absurd.
Two different players.
One who is absolutely one of the finest his role has ever seen, a proven winner and a man who knows exactly what he is.
Frankly, if we had a sniff of a chance to get him (or Gilberto for that matter) we would not only jump at it, but Didier would be out as a starter.
Makalele has a footballing intelligence that Zokora has not currently developed. I was prepared to give him a season to do so. He hasn't. How much longer do we wait? because he is not, currently, going to help us become what we want to be.

What's your problem. NOTHING from my last post was directed at you apart from the wave (you can tell this because under your quote there was the wave, then under Joey's quote was the rest of the stuff). I didn't write any thing under your quote and i didn't mention you at all. Funnily enough, it's you who "will not let it go". You seem to think i'm secretly referring to you whenever i write something. You're paranoid. :lol:

I didn't start the comparisons with Makelele. Joey did. Yes, read back. You will have to argue with him that it's absurd. It illustrates the point that even someone of Makelele's quality would not thrive in the wrong system. So i take it you disagree with Joey that Makelele in our 442 would not fair well?

 

[thfcsteff]

<<What's your problem. NOTHING from my last post was directed at you apart from the wave (you can tell this because under your quote there was the wave, then under Joey's quote was the rest of the stuff). I didn't write any thing under your quote and i didn't mention you at all. Funnily enough, it's you who "will not let it go". You seem to think i'm secretly referring to you whenever i write something. You're paranoid. :lol:>>

Fair enough. Apologies if the oblique "is shit" remark was not aimed indirectly at me. Not paranoia on my part, I just find you very, very aggravating, that's all. Thus you're right, I'm having a hard time letting it go, especially when obliqueness potentially becomes part of the landscape. But in this specific case, fair enough, perhaps I was wrong, perhaps you weren't being oblique thus I apologize.

<<I didn't start the comparisons with Makelele. Joey did. Yes, read back. You will have to argue with him that it's absurd. It illustrates the point that even someone of Makelele's quality would not thrive in the wrong system. So i take it you disagree with Joey that Makelele in our 442 would not fair well?>>

He did start the comparison based on comments you made. You continued the comparison. You asked the question.
Frankly, if we had the right player beside him, I believe Makalele could work very happily in a 4-4-2 system. If that means Joey and I ill end up having a discussion, excellent; at least it will be just that, a discussion.

 

[DFF]

I just find you very, very aggravating, that's all

:lol: Fair enough.

As for Makelele, i think if we had the right players beside him (or rather, in front of him), it could work. Same with Zokora, though. And even then, while it would be 4 in midfield, it wouldn't be a flat 4 across midfield. So it still wouldn't strictly be 442. I'm not sure i could see just one player in CM that would complement a flat 4 with Makelele, Malbranque and Lennon effectively enough. And we are all aware of how such a midfield works now when you swap out Makelele for Zokora (permitting you accept they are the same type of player to begin with). Who'd you have in mind? Maybe they're the missing piece of our midfield puzzle.

 

[stevenqoz]

It seems to me that Zokora, Huddlestone and Jenas can just about cover the jobs that the best teams manage with just two players in a 4 4 2. It is best if the coach fits the system to the players not the other way around. To me Zokora looks best as a third mobile CB who is not required to create too much but just move the ball along 5 / 10 yards to the likes of Jenas or Huddlestone centrally or Bale /Lennon out wide. Let him do what he does best. I would like to see the statistics on how many passes our forwards have ever received from Zokora, it would not be many. Of course we could allow him one Beckanbaur storm forward run per game

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But this if football theory rather than reallity. For the wide players to be truley effetive they need to be released early, to move the opposition team out of shape the midfield passing needs to be quick and varied. Possession is pointless unless it's used well. We keep the ball because of the way the team shapes up and the work we put it in (wether our fans like to acknowledge it or not we were the 4th highest pasing side and top tackling side in the Prem upto a month ago). We should have built on that in the summer by bringing in quality who can do better with the possession we have. Poulsen plays very much part of a controlled CM pairing, that press up and drop back together. He plays alongside good passing players like Renato and Keita. We play a deeper DM and a box to box player, therefore the DM has to be able to set the tempo etc, as Carrick used to. It isn't as simple as keeping possession and giving it easy. If we do that it is too easy for the oppositon players to close us down, our wide players just don't get the room to use the ball. We need passing from the centre that can stretch the oppostion and give our wide and front players the opportunity to be released.

But Joey, we were much LESS creative when Carrick was here. We are playing much better football now and last season than the two previous seasons.

I said in the summer our priorities were a quality CB, a quality DM, a quality goalkeeper and at least one quality creative player, preferably a left sided one but at least one.
For all the other dificiencies, I said we wouldn't challenge the top four mainly because we lack quality creativity.

You may think our biggest problem is Zokora. I think our biggest problems are firstly our defence is shit (for various individual reasons) , secondly we lack top drawer creativity (Lennon is inexperienced and inconsistant and Berbatov rarely puts in 100%), and thirdly our strikers don't work hard enough for the team often enough.

 

[joey55]

But Joey, we were much LESS creative when Carrick was here. We are playing much better football now and last season than the two previous seasons.

I said in the summer our priorities were a quality CB, a quality DM, a quality goalkeeper and at least one quality creative player, preferably a left sided one but at least one.
For all the other dificiencies, I said we wouldn't challenge the top four mainly because we lack quality creativity.

You may think our biggest problem is Zokora. I think our biggest problems are firstly our defence is shit (for various individual reasons) , secondly we lack top drawer creativity (Lennon is inexperienced and inconsistant and Berbatov rarely puts in 100%), and thirdly our strikers don't work hard enough for the team often enough.

But we weren't less creative from CM. We were less creative as a team simply because we had less creative players. Davids is nowhere near as creative as Steed and Mido was a fuck of a lot less creative than Berbatov. Also, if you take away the goals our forwards created out of nothing last season it doesn't leave a lot.

I don't think our biggest problem is Zokora per say, but that he represents our biggest problem, which is that we haven't brought in the right players. His position is the area we have gone backwards in most. Now I suppose, seeing as Leds never plays you could now argue the same at CB. Our biggest problem is that we were on the edge of CL football in 2006 and since then, with the exception of Berbatov and Bale, i don't think we've particuarly improved our playing staff and in key areas, such as Zokoras positon, we've taken big backwards steps. We might have spent a lot of money, but not in the right areas or on the right types of players.

The bit I've highlighted is because we were both in total agreement on exactly the 3 areas we needed strengthening. The only difference is, i was very confident we wouldn't get the right players for those positions because of our transfer policy (which Ramos himself commented on last week). Had we got those players, given the results we've had over the last couple of years, it's difficult to argue that we wouldn't have been pushing for CL football this season. Instead we might not even finish in the top 8 and alot of people don't see that bothered by it, or are happy to accept that things will change with a new coach. The way i see it, is that unless Leds is fit to play 30+ games per season, it wouldn't matter if Mourinho, Ferguson and Wenger formed a coaching dream team and took charge, this squad still wouldn't finish in the top 4.

 

[thfcsteff]

<<:lol: Fair enough.>>

A h christ, life's too short really, we all support the same club, and your reply seems geared to conversation/exchange and nothing else so cheers and :beer:

Anyhow, to answer as best I can...

<<As for Makelele, i think if we had the right players beside him (or rather, in front of him), it could work. Same with Zokora, though. And even then, while it would be 4 in midfield, it wouldn't be a flat 4 across midfield. So it still wouldn't strictly be 442. I'm not sure i could see just one player in CM that would complement a flat 4 with Makelele, Malbranque and Lennon effectively enough.>>


To be fair, for me this entire premise is predicated on the fact that Jermain Jenas will fulfil his potential and become the Lampard-esque, box-to-box, goal-scoring midfielder I believe he could be. I was just about to finally give up on him, as I felt that Jol and co simply had not been able to bring him to the next level. With Ramos around, he seems to play with much more purpose and belief (the key to his becoming 'the man' I think)...

If he does not make it to that degree, then indeed, we need to swap them both out.


<<And we are all aware of how such a midfield works now when you swap out Makelele for Zokora (permitting you accept they are the same type of player to begin with). Who'd you have in mind? Maybe they're the missing piece of our midfield puzzle>>

Again, Zokora is infinitely frustratong because there's no doubt he, too, has the tools to become a driving, box-to-box playmaker who can also pop a few in, but as of now, he simply does not create enough, cannot score and appears to have no idea how to play like a holding midfielder (positionally awful IMHO). Thus he is absolutely at his best (currently) as an auxillary defender...that said, given a starting line-up of 4-4-2, here are the combinations I would personally play.

1) When Berbs and bent or Defoe play...Bale, Malbranque, Jenas, Lennon

2) When Berbs and Keano play ...Malbranque, Tainio/ The Prince/Huddlestone, Jenas, Lennon (Bale reverts to left-back)

It's a personal thing, as I think when Keano is playing, it would simply be too tight in the middle with Malbranque there too (Keane drops into areas Steed would buzz around, problems...)
I'd like to see Malbranque given a chance to play in the middle, he has the energy for sure and he sees a pass.

If Hudd finds an engine, he steps right in, and The Prince could well jockey for a place too, but importantly, for me they're all ahead of Zokora when it comes to 4-4-2. Zokora would be useful as the bench, as his greatest strength to us currently is he can play a few different roles.

All IMHO...glad we could finally get a decent exchange in...

 

[sloth]

I don't think our biggest problem is Zokora per say, but that he represents our biggest problem, which is that we haven't brought in the right players.

A different subject I know, but I think our biggest problem has been the wrong coach.

 

[fedupyid]

Zokora worst first team midfielder to play for spurs since In the last seven years.

This is going back to the Graham era I don't believe I have seen a worse midfielder don on our beloved spurs shirt week after week. This man seems to be every where on the pitch when you watch him play but never in his own position whenever we need the defensive midfielder to close down the man taking the shot from outside the area he has chased the ball somewhere else so the opposition have free reign in midfield. The man gives the ball away with about 40% passes while he can not do the passes in the other 60% that find players in dangerous positions. His shot is as bad as Freund's but freund kept to his position while playing his b*****'s off. While if you question what he can actually do is tackle but half the time he has committed himself and not even thought about it being the right situation to do so. Now lets talk about his driving runs are brilliant if at the end of it a spurs' player is within five yards of him absolutely pointless if not because he has just given the ball away and the opposition is on the counter attack. The big question is why was this player signed a replacement for the international class carrick when he's barely relegation from the premiership class.

Spursking I know you are going to comment on this because you consider him to be a footballing god but come on take off your rose tinted glasses and see him for the waste of space he is.

 

[LadieK]

I don't agree at all!

Ok, I see your point about him playing out of position at times - but have you looked at how many times he has won us the ball? He aggressive, he's creative, he is just what we need.

You can get picky and say that he is often marking the wrong ball - but he's often winning them balls, he makes a lot of interceptions and he gets in my XI every time.


(Other than when I want Hudd to play) :lol:

 

[don1]

he is playing well lately ok he was not great for the second goal yesterday but since Ramos has come in he has played well, covering nearly every bit of grass