Massimo Luongo

[IGSpur]

I didn't rate him but I didn't call him a TS love child either. I rated Capoue above Bentaleb, the thing that pissed me off about TS was that he said he doesn't know Capoue but he's getting to know him as explanation as to why Capoue wasn't in the team and Bentaleb was.

Ye may have come off a bit rude in the original part of my post. While Capoue may have been the better player, my point is that he wasn't performing great at that time, and a young player coming in was arguably doing as well or better than him that noone would have expected. And now that young player has become integral.

Do you rate Bentaleb now? If so, it shows what I mean about patience and just taking a punt on a young player if he shows ability.

 

[Mullers]

Ye may have come off a bit rude in the original part of my post. While Capoue may have been the better player, my point is that he wasn't performing great at that time, and a young player coming in was arguably doing as well or better than him that noone would have expected. And now that young player has become integral.

Do you rate Bentaleb now? If so, it shows what I mean about patience and just taking a punt on a young player if he shows ability.

No it's cool, you did a good post.
I rate him certainly BUT...
I'm cautious about bigging up young players when they've only had a season or two in the top league. He could end up as just average but if he has hunger and desire to be successful at the top level, with the right coaches to develop him, then the sky is the limit. Poch might well be the right person to do that, we'll see,

 

[IGSpur]

I'm cautious about bigging up young players when they've only had a season or two in the top league. He could end up as just average but if he has hunger and desire to be successful at the top level

Agree very much with this. Despite me championing the young players we have I'm very aware it could go belly up for a number of reasons, and we should temper expectations. However, best thing with using the youth is the worse case scenario is that he regresses and we still get a good fee for him and he hasn't taken out a load on our wages. If he stays as he is much like Lennon didn't kick on he remains a squad player, or he kicks on and becomes world class.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Say what?
He was the head coach surely he should have knowledge and opinion about the sale of academy players.

I just don't think this is how the structure works any more Mullers.

AVB was head coach, primarily responsible for coaching/managing the first team group.

I would imagine the head coach would only be consulted if he had good knowledge of the player - i.e. he had been playing or on the fringes of the first team squad.

AVB came in the summer 2012. Luongo was sent on a season long loan to Ipswich in July that year. McCarthy (Ipswich manager) sent him back as not "right" for his team.He was then sent on loan in March 13 to Swindon, and effectively never returned during AVB's tenure.

The decision to loan or sell him would almost certainly have been made with much greater input form Sherwood (as technical coordinator/director of the academy), and I would hope other academy staff were maybe consulted too and the deal evaluated and finalised by Levy.

This was a very odd deal as a season loan was agreed in July 2013 then a sale of 400K in August ??

I don't have a problem, even if it was Sherwood, as just look at the list of midfielders we had around the club at the time, chances of Luongo getting a game were minuscule and the kid just wanted to play some first team football I guess.

If you want to blame AVB for letting Luongo go then we have to give him massive credit for not letting Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, Rose, Townsend, Carroll, Pricthard get sold. Which is bollocks, just as it is to blame him for Luongo being sold.

 

[Mullers]

Agree very much with this. Despite me championing the young players we have I'm very aware it could go belly up for a number of reasons, and we should temper expectations. However, best thing with using the youth is the worse case scenario is that he regresses and we still get a good fee for him and he hasn't taken out a load on our wages. If he stays as he is much like Lennon didn't kick on he remains a squad player, or he kicks on and becomes world class.

The tricky part is deciding whether a player is really regressing or not and then selling at the right time. I maintain that Lennon should have be sold a long time ago. I think Ramos attempted to replace him by buying Bentley but that didn't work out.

Players like Rooney, Joe Cole and Walcott are nowhere near as good as I think people thought they would be.

 

[eddiebailey]

I just don't think this is how the structure works any more Mullers.

AVB was head coach, primarily responsible for coaching/managing the first team group.

I would imagine the head coach would only be consulted if he had good knowledge of the player - i.e. he had been playing or on the fringes of the first team squad.

AVB came in the summer 2012. Luongo was sent on a season long loan to Ipswich in July that year. McCarthy (Ipswich manager) sent him back as not "right" for his team.He was then sent on loan in March 13 to Swindon, and effectively never returned during AVB's tenure.

The decision to loan or sell him would almost certainly have been made with much greater input form Sherwood (as technical coordinator/director of the academy), and I would hope other academy staff were maybe consulted too and the deal evaluated and finalised by Levy.

This was a very odd deal as a season loan was agreed in July 2013 then a sale of 400K in August ??

I don't have a problem, even if it was Sherwood, as just look at the list of midfielders we had around the club at the time, chances of Luongo getting a game were minuscule and the kid just wanted to play some first team football I guess.

If you want to blame AVB for letting Luongo go then we have to give him massive credit for not letting Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, Rose, Townsend, Carroll, Pricthard get sold. Which is bollocks, just as it is to blame him for Luongo being sold.

If Luongo had been in AVB's plans he wouldn't have been sold. End of. He wasn't and wanted to get on with his career so Sherwood helped the kid out and got him a good move. See the quotes from Luongo I posted above.

Not sure about the others, but we were perfectly willing to sell Mason (again there are quotes), however, being Tottenham through and through he clung on like a limpit in the hope of chasing his dream.

 

[stemark44]

[QUOTE="Bus-Conductor, post: 4463346, member: 2844"]I doubt very much that it was AVB's decision to sell Luongo at all.
[/QUOTE]

No surprise there.

 

[Mullers]

I just don't think this is how the structure works any more Mullers.

AVB was head coach, primarily responsible for coaching/managing the first team group.

I would imagine the head coach would only be consulted if he had good knowledge of the player - i.e. he had been playing or on the fringes of the first team squad.

AVB came in the summer 2012. Luongo was sent on a season long loan to Ipswich in July that year. McCarthy (Ipswich manager) sent him back as not "right" for his team.He was then sent on loan in March 13 to Swindon, and effectively never returned during AVB's tenure.

The decision to loan or sell him would almost certainly have been made with much greater input form Sherwood (as technical coordinator/director of the academy), and I would hope other academy staff were maybe consulted too and the deal evaluated and finalised by Levy.

This was a very odd deal as a season loan was agreed in July 2013 then a sale of 400K in August ??

I don't have a problem, even if it was Sherwood, as just look at the list of midfielders we had around the club at the time, chances of Luongo getting a game were minuscule and the kid just wanted to play some first team football I guess.

If you want to blame AVB for letting Luongo go then we have to give him massive credit for not letting Kane, Bentaleb, Mason, Rose, Townsend, Carroll, Pricthard get sold. Which is bollocks, just as it is to blame him for Luongo being sold.

But he knew about Kane when he came in, right? He even said that Kane would be fourth striker. Surely he would want to keep up with the progress of academy players and have an opinion whether they are ready for the first team or not. It could be that he heavily relied on Sherwood's opinion and input about academy players but I don't believe he was completely out of the loop.

I agree with you about Luongo though, we'd just be wasting his time by keeping him around, with so many others ahead of him.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If Luongo had been in AVB's plans he wouldn't have been sold. End of. He wasn't and wanted to get on with his career so Sherwood helped the kid out and got him a good move. See the quotes from Luongo I posted above.

Not sure about the others, but we were perfectly willing to sell Mason (again there are quotes from Mason), however, being Tottenham through an through he clung on like a limpit in the hope of chasing his dream.

No that's not "end of" EB, that's a massively disingenuous and crassly over simplistic load of twaddle. It ignores all the rational factors I have mentioned. Should every kid in the academy be in the first team coach's plans ? The fact that there were already several (some international) options ahead of Luongo, the fact that he'd only been at the club for 3 months of AVB's 18 month tenure as a 19/20yo in a season where AVB's job was to qualify for the CL.

I would imagine that if Sherwood believed he was destined for great things he would have either persuaded the player and Levy of this, and there was already a season loan in place so there was no need to sell, or at the very least put his value at higher than 400k. Luongo was even sent back by McCarthy at Ipswich 4 months into a year loan.

Logic suggests that after agreeing a loan Swindon then decided to offer us 400k deal a month later. So who do you think Levy would have been sounding out as to whether that was a good option and price ? AVB who'd had almost no contact with the kid or Sherwood who by his own words had been involved in his loans/development ?

Come on EB, trying to blame AVB for this is pathetic.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But he knew about Kane when he came in, right? He even said that Kane would be fourth striker. Surely he would want to keep up with the progress of academy players and have an opinion whether they are ready for the first team or not. It could be that he heavily relied on Sherwood's opinion and input about academy players but I don't believe he was completely out of the loop.

I agree with you about Luongo though, we'd just be wasting his time by keeping him around, with so many others ahead of him.

I would imagine it would very much depend on the individual circumstances in every case. I can believe that the head coach will always be consulted where it's a fringe player, but in Luongo's case I doubt whether AVB had formed much of an opinion. Sherwood (or McDermott/Ramsey etc) on the other hand would have had shitloads.

 

[Main Man]

Sometimes players have to move on to progress. I think that was very much the case with Massimo. Nathan Byrne is doing really well down there too, Obika perhaps to a lesser extent.

Pritchard will be in exactly the same position this summer and I hope he uses his brain and l;eaves us.

There is no point hanging on to the older young players in the hope that they eventually turn in to a multi-million pound player.

These kids need to be playing week in week out earning a living.

 

[eddiebailey]

No that's not "end of" EB, that's a massively disingenuous and crassly over simplistic load of twaddle. It ignores all the rational factors I have mentioned. Should every kid in the academy be in the first team coach's plans ? The fact that there were already several (some international) options ahead of Luongo, the fact that he'd only been at the club for 3 months of AVB's 18 month tenure as a 19/20yo in a season where AVB's job was to qualify for the CL.

I would imagine that if Sherwood believed he was destined for great things he would have either persuaded the player and Levy of this, and there was already a season loan in place so there was no need to sell, or at the very least put his value at higher than 400k. Luongo was even sent back by McCarthy at Ipswich 4 months into a year loan.

Logic suggests that after agreeing a loan Swindon then decided to offer us 400k deal a month later. So who do you think Levy would have been sounding out as to whether that was a good option and price ? AVB who'd had almost no contact with the kid or Sherwood who by his own words had been involved in his loans/development ?

Come on EB, trying to blame AVB for this is pathetic.

Luongo has said that he left because he saw no prospect of breaking through at Spurs under AVB. Live with it.

 

[eddiebailey]

Sometimes players have to move on to progress. I think that was very much the case with Massimo. Nathan Byrne is doing really well down there too, Obika perhaps to a lesser extent.

Pritchard will be in exactly the same position this summer and I hope he uses his brain and l;eaves us.

There is no point hanging on to the older young players in the hope that they eventually turn in to a multi-million pound player.

These kids need to be playing week in week out earning a living.

Got to hang onto some of them or what's the point? What grinds my gears is when promising youngsters are let go without being given a chance. Some will go onto be stars (Kane, Bentaleb) others useful squad players on whom we will turn a profit (Livemore, Caulker); but either way I would sooner have them providing back up to the first XI than disgruntled internationals on £50K a week who think they are doing us a favour by bothering to slouch out onto the pitch. I would certianly much sooner have had, for instance, Veljkovic, Carroll and Pritchard in our squad this season than Kaboul, Capoue and Paulinho. Luongo is a good example of a player who could, at the least, have given us a couple of seasons decent service as back-up before being sold on for a decent price.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Luongo has said that he left because he saw no prospect of breaking through at Spurs under AVB. Live with it.

Sherwood sold him. Live with it.

 

[SlickMongoose]

I love how BC is trying to defend AVB by arguing that he was too ignorant and apathetic about our youth system to have had any input or control. Nice one.

 

[eddiebailey]

Sherwood sold him. Live with it.

Sherwood facilitated the sale; AVB made it necessary.

 

[Metalhead]

Sherwood sold him. Live with it.

Maybe one could argue that hindsight is 20:20 either way?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sherwood facilitated the sale; AVB made it necessary.

No EB, circumstances made it desirable for all parties, and if Sherwood thought he was going to be worth keeping he should have advised the player and Levy to just stick with the loan, like he did with others.

No one forced Luongo to be sold, he had just agreed a one year loan and I doubt very much it was AVB advising him, it was almost certainly Sherwood by the sounds of it. Advising him to go permanently top his mate at Swindon ?

Do you think Sherwood said to Levy "Don't sell this kid at any cost" ?

Which of Sandro, Dembele, Paulinho, Holtby, Eriksen, Carroll, Bentaleb, Mason would Luongo have superseded in the pecking order at the time, baring in mind he was rejected after 4 months with Ipswich.

 

[IGSpur]

baring in mind he was rejected after 4 months with Ipswich.

I'm sure you're aware but I think rejected is hard. He was one of Ipswich's best players at the time, and a change of manager lead to them wanting to bring in experience to secure their position.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm sure you're aware but I think rejected is hard. He was one of Ipswich's best players at the time, and a change of manager lead to them wanting to bring in experience to secure their position.

The McCarthy quote I read was "not the type of player we need"