Do we need Dier now?

Clark28

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2016
Messages
1,039
#81
Yes we need Dier, it's a long season and if Vic or a CB were to get injured we'll be thanking our lucky stars that Dier is still here.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,478
#83
My views of Dier as a CM/DM are pretty well known, I think he's a very poor one in most respects, he can't press very well because he's easily spun, he doesn't want to receive the ball if there's anyone within five yards of him, his movement off the ball is lethargic and unimaginative, his passing is ultra safe, lacks any incision whatsoever and he kills tempo. Everyone seems to be saying "his flexibility is key to how we play" but this is bollocks too, being able to retreat 10 yards into the back line is not some tactical road to Damascus, having a CM who could tackle, move and pass quickly with a modicum of incisiveness would be far more tactically liberating.

And anyone quoting his England's performances in his defence as a CM are fucking bonkers, they were amongst some of the worst individual (by Dier) and team performances (influenced by Dier trundling) I've seen from England lately, (I mean seriously - Scotland FFS ?) and when you consider the body of work we are comparing them to, that's a pretty damning statement.

But what I don't understand is some of the heavy criticism of Dier as a CB. I think as a CB, if you take on board his age and experience, he's doing well. I think he's well on the way to being another Alderweireld; a player who didn't become the finished article until he was around 25/26, was a "squad" player at AMadrid, and had to take a loan move to a mid table PL club to get regular football. But Dier has similar qualities, they are both robust, tenacious types, comfortable on the ball but not great at moving with it, can read the game from CB (in Dier's case this will improve as it has with Alderweireld) and are leader types, especially Dier.

I just wish Poch had never put him into CM, because I think he now sees CB as a demotion, I think if he just concentrated on playing CB he'd be a damn fine PL CB eventually, a a perfectly good one already, (I think he's already as good there as the likes of Maguire and Keane etc).
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
5,189
#84
I think we will see dier focus on DM role this season and end up as first choice over wanyama, in the process pushing himself to new heights.

Don't forget dm is mourhinhos favourite position and dier was his first choice signing. Southgate also rated him in this position as does poch.

Poch also loves him, I suspect as much for his character and the steel he adds as his ability. He has always found a way to get him on the pitch even if it meant changing formations.

My guess is they have had a heart to heart and with England on his mind dier has said he wants to focus on midfield so poch has bought a new centre back and will challenge him to be better than wanyama.

Looking at it from diers perspective he could have been going into this season as starting dm for man utd and England, all he needed to do was hand in a transfer request, but he chose to stay at spurs. Do you really think he chose to stay as a utility squad player?
Good point and I like your reasoning.
If such is the case, and Dier really does up his game, he'll really elevate himself into the elite for that role, if he manages to oust Wanyama who was, arguably, as effective as Kante last season.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
5,189
#85
Sorry mate but this is an idiotic discussion.

Only spurs fans could be so ridiculous as to want to have a debate about whether we keep an England international under the age of 24 who is world class.

Quite embarrassing really.
Nothing idiotic about it at all, as evidenced by some of the replies that have weighed him up against his peers.
The general consensus is that Dier should stay, that doesn't preclude the discussion though. He does polarise opinion and there are valid arguments that he appears to be slipping down the pecking order, in the opinion of more than a few posters anyway. Just as valid are the arguments regarding his mentality and his overall value to the squad, not just in a specific role but in all the intangibles like mentality and contribution to the team spirit.

On the whole I think it's been quite a good debate with a variety of views put forward and discussed.
 
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
455
#87
My views of Dier as a CM/DM are pretty well known, I think he's a very poor one in most respects, he can't press very well because he's easily spun, he doesn't want to receive the ball if there's anyone within five yards of him, his movement off the ball is lethargic and unimaginative, his passing is ultra safe, lacks any incision whatsoever and he kills tempo. Everyone seems to be saying "his flexibility is key to how we play" but this is bollocks too, being able to retreat 10 yards into the back line is not some tactical road to Damascus, having a CM who could tackle, move and pass quickly with a modicum of incisiveness would be far more tactically liberating.

And anyone quoting his England's performances in his defence as a CM are fucking bonkers, they were amongst some of the worst individual (by Dier) and team performances (influenced by Dier trundling) I've seen from England lately, (I mean seriously - Scotland FFS ?) and when you consider the body of work we are comparing them to, that's a pretty damning statement.

But what I don't understand is some of the heavy criticism of Dier as a CB. I think as a CB, if you take on board his age and experience, he's doing well. I think he's well on the way to being another Alderweireld; a player who didn't become the finished article until he was around 25/26, was a "squad" player at AMadrid, and had to take a loan move to a mid table PL club to get regular football. But Dier has similar qualities, they are both robust, tenacious types, comfortable on the ball but not great at moving with it, can read the game from CB (in Dier's case this will improve as it has with Alderweireld) and are leader types, especially Dier.

I just wish Poch had never put him into CM, because I think he now sees CB as a demotion, I think if he just concentrated on playing CB he'd be a damn fine PL CB eventually, a a perfectly good one already, (I think he's already as good there as the likes of Maguire and Keane etc).
I think you are probably right as things stand but that doesn't mean he can't improve given a full season in midfield and training as a midfielder. I'm sure they can improve his agility with dedicated exercises, they managed to make Kane faster and rose more robust!
 

FreddieYid

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Messages
1,332
#88
He's our 3rd best CB (until Davison proves otherwise).

He's our 2nd best DM.

Is he amazing? No.

Is he important? Yes. Both on and off the pitch.
 

Bulletspur

The Reasonable Advocate
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,568
#92
He's our 3rd best CB (until Davison proves otherwise).

He's our 2nd best DM.

Is he amazing? No.

Is he important? Yes. Both on and off the pitch.
Sanchez is definitely better than him as both a CB and DM. Wanyama and Dembele are also better than him as a DM. So 4th at best in both positions. And I say at best because you could reasonably throw Wimmer and Winks in the mix
 

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,227
#93
My views of Dier as a CM/DM are pretty well known, I think he's a very poor one in most respects, he can't press very well because he's easily spun, he doesn't want to receive the ball if there's anyone within five yards of him, his movement off the ball is lethargic and unimaginative, his passing is ultra safe, lacks any incision whatsoever and he kills tempo. Everyone seems to be saying "his flexibility is key to how we play" but this is bollocks too, being able to retreat 10 yards into the back line is not some tactical road to Damascus, having a CM who could tackle, move and pass quickly with a modicum of incisiveness would be far more tactically liberating.

And anyone quoting his England's performances in his defence as a CM are fucking bonkers, they were amongst some of the worst individual (by Dier) and team performances (influenced by Dier trundling) I've seen from England lately, (I mean seriously - Scotland FFS ?) and when you consider the body of work we are comparing them to, that's a pretty damning statement.

But what I don't understand is some of the heavy criticism of Dier as a CB. I think as a CB, if you take on board his age and experience, he's doing well. I think he's well on the way to being another Alderweireld; a player who didn't become the finished article until he was around 25/26, was a "squad" player at AMadrid, and had to take a loan move to a mid table PL club to get regular football. But Dier has similar qualities, they are both robust, tenacious types, comfortable on the ball but not great at moving with it, can read the game from CB (in Dier's case this will improve as it has with Alderweireld) and are leader types, especially Dier.

I just wish Poch had never put him into CM, because I think he now sees CB as a demotion, I think if he just concentrated on playing CB he'd be a damn fine PL CB eventually, a a perfectly good one already, (I think he's already as good there as the likes of Maguire and Keane etc).
Agree with all that, apart from that he is a leader, which everyone seems to think but I just don't see.

I think its worrying if Poch has promised him he can play primarily in midfield from now on.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
19,443
#95
Sanchez is definitely better than him as both a CB and DM. Wanyama and Dembele are also better than him as a DM. So 4th at best in both positions. And I say at best because you could reasonably throw Wimmer and Winks in the mix
Have you seen Sanchez play as a DMF?
 

agrdavidsfan

Ledley's Knee!
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
7,944
#96
I think he's actually one of the only players that seems to have regressed under poch.

He needs to sharpen up his foot work he seems to take an age to make decisions
 

ernie78

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Messages
2,782
#99
Been disappointing this season, was my favourite player a few seasons back but hasn’t been the same since England’s shambolic Euros
 
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