Hillsborough inquests

[Wellspurs]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...7NfPkM&usg=AFQjCNHvZLbok9K-NgsLxsskmiBrGTLzGw

All together now!

 

[Grey Fox]

To be perfectly honest I'm fucking sick of hearing about it.

The police fucked up. The stadium designers fucked up. The army of drunk and ticket-less Liverpool fans fucked up.

For some twisted reason the latter point has been glossed over (obviously nothing to do with the reaction to The Sun's bullshit).

I spent hours going through the released papers, and their fuckwit fans of the age clearly played their part in causing this tragedy.

If they had a shred of decency they'd feel ashamed. That's clearly a moral admittance beyond them...just ask Juve.

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

 

[mightyspur]

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!

 

[Spurger King]

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.

That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.

Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?

The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.

The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.

I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?

 

[Spurger King]

I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!

Never hear the phrase 'public pressure' before? Read the actual un-doctored reports and I'd be surprised if you maintain your current view. Some Liverpool fans were in-part to blame. Not a popular reading, but clearly an accurate one if you actually read the evidence.

 

[Mustard]

Never hear the phrase 'public pressure' before? Read the actual un-doctored reports and I'd be surprised if you maintain your current view. Some Liverpool fans were in-part to blame. Not a popular reading, but clearly an accurate one if you actually read the evidence.

Those 'reports' were lies. Those 'undoctred' reports were redacted so heavily they barely made sense.

That's not my words btw but the very few decent coppers on duty words. They were astounded that they were forced to 'retire' due to telling the truth.

You are so way off the mark here. I now have to question all the things you have said that I agree with, applauded, enjoyed and laughed at.

What is your agenda here? When will you stop? Clearly not when the biggest ever inquiry in British legal history delivers its most damning verdict. Will it be when the South Yorkshire chief constable is suspended due to lack of public faith? Clearly not.

Will it be when people responsible are actually locked up?

Probably not either.

You keep peddling the Sun and Kelvins lies. They are your bedfellows.

Disgrace.

 

[sherbornespurs]

I wasn't going to comment on this cos I am sick of it , yes I am sorry for the people who died and they were innocent, but I went to our game there 2 years before and the policing and security safety at the stadium was abysmal. Having said that a number of our fans got in without tickets and it was very uncomfortable. Two of my non Liverpool fan mates went for the "crack" without tickets and said they had heard several fans outside the ground talking of rushing the gates and turnstiles and that thousands of fans were outside just before kick off ( have a look at the TV pictures and ask yourself where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?). Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

Sick of 27yrs of injustice? Sick of hearing about the institutionalised corruption of South Yorkshire police? Sick that the families of the 96 victims were right all along? Or sick that after 2yrs of inquest your own pre-conceived observations based on nothing more substantial than second hand anecdotal here-say have been completely and utterly proved groundless?

Here's some points you may wish to consider:
1. Check the video again. No one rushed the gates. Only when Superintendent Duckenfield opened the gates at 14:52 did anyone surge forward.

2. Yes, thousands (estimate is 2k) were still outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles just before kick-off. The inquest heard that on the weekend of the Semi-Final there were roadworks on the M62 which caused the late arrival of an estimated 5k Liverpool fans. Besides which it's nothing unusual for fans to turn up at the last minute. In this case it wouldn't have been unreasonable for the match to have been put back 15mins to get everyone in.

3. ",,,where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?". There was plenty of room to take all the fans behind the goal. As you will know from your own experience of Leppings Lane the layout is a bit like the old Wembley. You go through the turnstile and into an atrium and from there into one of several terraced pens. The problem was that when the gates were opened the match was about to kick off & everyone headed directly for the central pens immediately in front of them (pens 3 & 4). The pens adjacent (1 & 2 next to the Main Stand and 6 & 7 next to the North Stand) were only partially filled.

4. There was no need for the police to control "...the crowd further from the ground.." the problems of control were solely in the ground and in the immediate vicinity of the Leppings Lane entrance.

And finally......
5. "...to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong".
INQUEST JUDGEMENT (7)
Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury's answer: No

 

[Mustard]

Sick of 27yrs of injustice? Sick of hearing about the institutionalised corruption of South Yorkshire police? Sick that the families of the 96 victims were right all along? Or sick that after 2yrs of inquest your own pre-conceived observations based on nothing but substantial than second hand anecdotal here-say have been completely and utterly proved groundless?

Here's some points you may wish to consider:
1. Check the video again. No one rushed the gates. Only when Superintendent Duckenfield opened the gates at 14:52 did anyone surge forward.

2. Yes, thousands (estimate is 2k) were still outside the Leppings Lane turnstiles just before kick-off. The inquest heard that on the weekend of the Semi-Final there was roadworks on the M62 which caused the late arrival of an estimated 5k Liverpool fans. Besides which it's nothing unusual for fans to turn up at the last minute. In this case it wouldn't have been unreasonable for the match to have been put back 15mins to get everyone in.

3. ",,,where were those fans going to go inside a packed stadium?". There was plenty of room to take all the fans behind the goal. As you will know from your own experience of Leppings Lane the layout is a bit like the old Wembley. You go through the turnstile and into an atrium and from there into one of several terraced pens. The problem was that when the gates were opened the match was about to kick off & everyone headed directly for the central pens immediately in front of them (pens 3 & 4). The pens adjacent (1 & 2 next to the Main Stand and 6 & 7 next to the North Stand) were only partially filled.

4. There was no need for the police to control "...the crowd further from the ground.." the problems of control were solely in the ground and in the immediate vicinity of the Leppings Lane entrance.

And finally......
5. "...to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong".
INQUEST JUDGEMENT (7)
Behaviour of the supporters: Was there any behaviour on the part of the football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
Jury's answer: No

It makes me so angry that people, some who purport to be football fans as well, still maintain that it was somehow the victims fault they died. And it was their fellow supporters who killed them.

It just staggers me. The evidence is clear. It's on CCTV for all the fools that think otherwise. It's there in front of your eyes ffs! But still there are appeasers.

I used to think Spurs fans were the best fans. Reading a few of the comments on here sickens me to my very soul.

 

[Mustard]

I think I might find this difficult to explain and in no way I'm a trying to cast asspertions upon anyone, but as someone who was a regular home and away at the time of Hillsboro and was actually at our semi final with wolves at Hillsboro 2 years earlier and saw what happenend that day from the seats above in the leppings lane end. we where very lucky not to have had injuries and even deaths that day and warnings from that day where obviously not heeded.
but going to football then was not like it is now, all football fans where treated as animals!.. lets face it many where including me and Liverpool had more than there fair share.. there reputation for being thieves , bindippers all round scum etc didn't come by accident!. and coming out of lime st station in them days when you played them you took your life in your hands unless you where mob handed.
the vast majority of Liverpool fans that day where nothing less than well behaved fans just going to support there team but like all teams support in them days had an element that made a reputation for all of football and the authourities dealt with everyone as if they where thugs/ hooligans etc. ..." the English desease " as it was known abroad then.

I pray for those families of the 96 that have lost there loved ones. 27 years is long long time for the truth to finally be proved.
I don't know how they will ever find comfort and I do really hope accountability to those who's failiures that day cost these innocent people there lives is much swifter ..

I thought our 'incident' was in '81 it was on radio five tonight. After our 'incident' Hillsborough was banned from hosting semi finals for six years.

The only reason we missed a massacre was because the 'pens' then didn't have have caging at the side. Our fans had the chance to escape that way.

Were all our fans pissed up and intent on....well I'm not sure what our pissed up fans were trying to do apart from watching a semi final.

Spurger King seems an expert on this one.

 

[nipponyid]

I thought our 'incident' was in '81 it was on radio five tonight. After our 'incident' Hillsborough was banned from hosting semi finals for six years.

The only reason we missed a massacre was because the 'pens' then didn't have have caging at the side. Our fans had the chance to escape that way.

Ours was '81, no idea why peeps keep saying 2 years previously as we were at Villa Park.

Read on a Leeds site they had the same problem in '87, but their Semi with Coventry was delayed for 30 minutes to get everyone in, but again there was a massive crush and fans were being lifted up to the upper tier, like in '89. In those days the organising authorities found it easier, more convenient, to allocate stands to the fans of opposing semi-finalists based on where the bulk of those fans were travelling from. So, in 1989, Forest got the large Kop End, Coventry in '87, and Wolves in '81..

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ped-their-own-hillsborough-disaster-1-7880063

 

[nipponyid]

Yes the police were at fault for not controlling the crowd further from the ground, but to say Liverpool fans and other fans were not in anyway responsible is just wrong

Maybe you need to read up on this then...

Five Hillsborough myths dispelled by inquests jury..
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

 

[Freddy Adu]

My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.

That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.

Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?

The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.

The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.

I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?

Mate, you are so wide of the mark it's unreal. I have to agree with Mustard, what exactly is your agenda? You're not an idiot, why are you so intent on clinging on to these lies?

As for do people think 100% Liverpools fans were sober? Of course 100% of Liverpool fans weren't sober, what has that got to do with anything? Give me one British football game in the last 50 years where 100% of the fans were stone cold sober. What a meaningless accusation that is, you really think a few fans that have had a few beers before the game are capable of causing a crush?!

Like others have said, the video footage is there for all to see, it's not a secret. Go watch it, there is no pushing, no violence, there are no fans climbing to get into the ground, there are plenty climbing to escape. That type of crush was a regular occurrence back in those days, but normally police knew how to handle it so that people didn't die. It was never safe, but usually they could just about handle it. It really could've happened to anybody, those fans were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that day, the police in charge were inexperienced, totally unprepared and negligent. Go read the reports, it's clear that they were more concerned with stopping trouble than people's safety. Duckenfield in particular clearly came at the whole thing with an abhorrent attitude, one of them against us, rather than doing his job which was to protect people in a dangerous situation.

And the worst part is that mere minutes after people were dying, his first thought was to shift the blame to the fans rather than accept responsibility. Drunk fans, fans urinating on police, an unruly mob - lies which you have clearly bought hook line and sinker, to this day!

 

[ohtottenham!]

My earlier post was way too bombastic, and thoughtlessly offensive. Apologies to those offended by my wording.

That said, I agree with you. I watched it live on TV, and for years I fully agreed with the Liverpool fans. Ironically it wasn't until I read the non-redacted police reports that my opinion changed. For the most part the stuff omitted was about the way the police handled the unfolding situation, and clearly they were incompetent and liable. However, there are several reports about fans turning up without tickets, getting pissed in local bars, and ignoring megaphone warnings that rushing the ground would endanger fellow supporters. It's literally there in print from multiple witnesses.

Frankly the notion that 'Liverpool fans weren't pissed at Hillsborough' is ridiculous. It's a revised media whitewash. Do people really think that 100% of 1980s Liverpool fans would all have been sober as a judge on the day of an FA Cup semi?

The lion's share of the blame has to go to the stadium designers and the police. What I was attempting to say (very badly as it turns out) in the post you quoted is that there were some (certainly not all) Liverpool fans to blame too, and that it does irritate me that this has been glossed over by the majority of their supporters. I'm certainly not blaming those who died. I'm partly blaming some of those who lived.

The official, unedited versions of what happened report drunk fans piling into the stadium despite megaphone warnings from police on horseback stating exactly what was taking place inside. In what world are they in part not to blame? Grown adults being told they are putting the lives of fellow Liverpool fans in danger if they ignore the warnings. Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

I was at the first UK Foo Fighters gig at Reading when fans rushed the tent to see them. People ended up being crushed and rushed to hospital. My own sister had to fight her way out of what she described as "a living nightmare". I arrived late, saw the rush of people, and had the foresight to say to myself "you know what...this looks like a situation I don't want to be a part of". If there had been police on horseback shouting "stay back" through a megaphone, that decision would have been even easier.

I'd feel the same way if this had happened to Spurs (as it nearly did). The police were telling them to stop piling in, but a lot of their fans continued to do so anyway. When someone is shouting "danger" through a megaphone, those that ignore it should share some of the blame surely?

So, it seems your real irritation is with, in your view, Liverpool fans being unable to accept their own part of “the blame”? Are you serious? They’ve had to live with that unfair slur for decades!

“Megaphone warnings to stay back… pissed fans piling into the stadium…”. You mean the warnings that came way too late as there was effectively no organized policing and crowd control inside or outside the stadium? You mean fans, of varying levels of sobriety from sober to drunk, who were already crushed to f..k outside the gates, because of criminally inadequate crowd control, and once let in, were naturally rushing to get a place to watch a game about to start?

Of course some fans were pissed. People drank more in those days, especially before big games. Where in the media did it say 100% of fans were sober on the day? You point to reports of fans getting pissed in local bars, some arriving without tickets…well blow me down! I’m sure that had never happened before, and caught the local constabulary completely unawares!

The same two teams, Liverpool and Forest, played at the same ground in the same leg of the same competition exactly a year earlier. The same fans were allotted the same ends of the ground, stupidly of course, with the smaller Leppings end and its death trap pens housing ‘Pool fans, who were the much larger group. It was the same as us against Wolves in ’81.

Difference was in the earlier ‘Pool/Forest semi, there was an experienced superintendant in overall charge, and another experienced superintendant in charge of proceedings outside the ground. Despite this, there were still problems with overcrowding and effective crowd policing even in that semi.

In the fateful ’89 semi, the officers in charge were both new to their roles and horrifically negligent, and completely ignorant of their responsibilities.

http://www.theguardian.com/football...-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Those megaphone warnings you speak of happened far too late! Duckenfield didn’t know wtf was going on, and Marshall hadn’t put into place any filtering or monitoring of fans on the approaches to Leppings Lane, or in Leppings Lane itself. There was absolutely no effective crowd control outside the ground, as none had been planned, allowing the crush to develop.

Once the gate was opened to allow fans in, there was no filter process to shepherd them into the outer, uncrowded, safe pens. Instead, fans, just naturally went through the passageways leading to the already overcrowded central pens.

96 dead, and then a decades-long, disgusting and shameful police cover up compounded the grief and trauma suffered by the community. It vilified and assassinated the character of people who went to watch a football game and suffered horribly as a consequence; not only in the horrific, preventable event itself, but for decades afterwards.

So glad they got some form of justice. They fully deserve it!

 

[class of 62]

I didn't realise you sat in and reviewed all the evidence over the past 2 years. The same evidence that has since concluded the fans were not to blame. I mean fucking hell?!

sorry fella but going to football then was different .. loads turned up ticketless at Hillsboro that day and blagged the turnstiles as we all did in them days.. just an honest opinion.. not saying it was an overriding cause but it undoubtedly happened.

 

[class of 62]

Ours was '81, no idea why peeps keep saying 2 years previously as we were at Villa Park.

Read on a Leeds site they had the same problem in '87, but their Semi with Coventry was delayed for 30 minutes to get everyone in, but again there was a massive crush and fans were being lifted up to the upper tier, like in '89. In those days the organising authorities found it easier, more convenient, to allocate stands to the fans of opposing semi-finalists based on where the bulk of those fans were travelling from. So, in 1989, Forest got the large Kop End, Coventry in '87, and Wolves in '81..

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ped-their-own-hillsborough-disaster-1-7880063

apologies mate.. I don't know what I was thinking regarding the year.. but I can recall our day there 2 years before as if it was yesterday!.. from the bollocks of getting from Sheffield station to Hillsboro and vis versa after.. finding a pub near the ground and walking up to the ground!.. sitting in my seat and watching what unfolded below me.. only difference was the gap in the fence to the right and plod being aware of what was going on then !.. still kicked off at the other end when they created a gap in the kop end for the spurs overspill in the leppings lane end which was led around the side of the pitch.
to this day ive always wondered why the teams with the biggest following in both ours and liverpools semis at Hillsboro where never given the kop end but the far smaller leppings lane end of terrace and seating.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

sorry fella but going to football then was different .. loads turned up ticketless at Hillsboro that day and blagged the turnstiles as we all did in them days.. just an honest opinion.. not saying it was an overriding cause but it undoubtedly happened.

Indeed. I remember when we got knocked out of the cup at Port Vale the year before Hillsborough I think it was, loads of Spurs turned up without tickets and it got so bad outside that they just opened up the gates and let everyone in.

 

[ohtottenham!]

apologies mate.. I don't know what I was thinking regarding the year.. but I can recall our day there 2 years before as if it was yesterday!.. from the bollocks of getting from Sheffield station to Hillsboro and vis versa after.. finding a pub near the ground and walking up to the ground!.. sitting in my seat and watching what unfolded below me.. only difference was the gap in the fence to the right and plod being aware of what was going on then !.. still kicked off at the other end when they created a gap in the kop end for the spurs overspill in the leppings lane end which was led around the side of the pitch.
to this day ive always wondered why the teams with the biggest following in both ours and liverpools semis at Hillsboro where never given the kop end but the far smaller leppings lane end of terrace and seating.

'cause the South Yorkshire Police were up their own arses, mate! Never made sense to me either why we got the Leppings. Re the blagging/jibbing, we all used to do it. Was easier in the 70s, and got more difficult. There was no more blagging in '89 Hillsborough than in previous seasons.

 

[nailsy]

Were the fans traveling in to different stations? The reason they gave for the ends they chose was that they wanted to keep the fans apart outside the stadium, like their paths would cross if they allocated the fans to different ends.

 

[Spurger King]

Those 'reports' were lies. Those 'undoctred' reports were redacted so heavily they barely made sense.

That's not my words btw but the very few decent coppers on duty words. They were astounded that they were forced to 'retire' due to telling the truth.

You are so way off the mark here. I now have to question all the things you have said that I agree with, applauded, enjoyed and laughed at.

What is your agenda here? When will you stop? Clearly not when the biggest ever inquiry in British legal history delivers its most damning verdict. Will it be when the South Yorkshire chief constable is suspended due to lack of public faith? Clearly not.

Will it be when people responsible are actually locked up?

Probably not either.

You keep peddling the Sun and Kelvins lies. They are your bedfellows.

Disgrace.

You're becoming a bit of a parody of yourself.

So the big report that got released to the public after years of pressure, the same report that highlighted how much the police had attempted a cover up, were all lies? All of it? But the coppers you mention were telling the truth? Which is it? Have you actually read them?

I base my opinion on reading the more recently released reports...the ones where all the redacted parts and amendments were highlighted to prove the cover-up. They certainly proved the cover-up, but in my opinion they also showed that it was far less black and white than it has subsequently been portrayed.

As for having an agenda, and "when will you stop?" you sound ridiculous. It's an opinion expressed on a 'closed to the public' forum. What are you expecting me to do exactly? Campaign outside Anfield? For someone that tends to offer quite grounded views your reaction has been hyperbolic to say the least.

Anyway, I rapidly lose interest in continuing discussions when an interlocutor goes into full 'Disgusted, of Tunbridge Wells' mode. I'll listen to critical arguments, but ad hominem soap-box pop shots don't really do anything for me.

 

[UpTownSpur]