Simple Harry Vote - Yes or No?

[PT]

so 170 entries later and all is square in the poll at 84/84 or 50% / 50%.

Harry is Marmite.

 

[Abdoujaparov]

Statistically, if we're talking meaningfully, your analysis doesn't stand up.

No analysis there mate. Just made an assertion and provided some evidence. Think it's interesting though that of Redknapp's eight predecessors only one would be deemed by most to have been a successful appointment. Jol, and he didn't do as well as Redknapp.

Maybe you think Levy would pick better than previous chairmen? Well, he selected Hoddle, Santini, Jol and Ramos so I wouldn't be so sure.

The thing about football is that fans' expectations tend overwhelmingly to be set too high. We expect third, we get fourth; in years gone by, we expect 6th, we get 12th. Fact is, most fans reckon their club should be finishing a few places higher. That's part of being a fan for a lot of people - thinking your tribe is f*cking eh and deserves to be doing better.

But when you take one big step back, remove those spurs tinted spectacles and view it dispassionately it's pretty clear that Redknapp has done a great job.

 

[Rout-Ledge]

No. I was fairly torn but I simply don't believe he has anything remotely approaching a long term, or even a medium term, strategy for us and at this stage in time we sorely need one.

 

[StartingPrice]

No. I was fairly torn but I simply don't believe he has anything remotely approaching a long term, or even a medium term, strategy for us and at this stage in time we sorely need one.

Too much information

 

[Eric_s]

I also think we need a longer term strategy to keep us fighting in the top of the league.

 

[sloth]

No analysis there mate. Just made an assertion and provided some evidence. Think it's interesting though that of Redknapp's eight predecessors only one would be deemed by most to have been a successful appointment. Jol, and he didn't do as well as Redknapp.

Maybe you think Levy would pick better than previous chairmen? Well, he selected Hoddle, Santini, Jol and Ramos so I wouldn't be so sure.

The thing about football is that fans' expectations tend overwhelmingly to be set too high. We expect third, we get fourth; in years gone by, we expect 6th, we get 12th. Fact is, most fans reckon their club should be finishing a few places higher. That's part of being a fan for a lot of people - thinking your tribe is f*cking eh and deserves to be doing better.

But when you take one big step back, remove those spurs tinted spectacles and view it dispassionately it's pretty clear that Redknapp has done a great job.

Sorry mate, I misunderstood, I thought you were saying that statistically we're likely to get a worse, rather than a better manager than Harry next time, and had produced some statistics to back that up. If you had, then I was just saying that the statistical evidence offered, if meant to support the statement, was pretty much meaningless. Obviously though you were saying something different to that... must have gone straight over my ditsy little head...

 

[Wiener]

Redknapp could never be a long-term option. Not just due to his age and health risks, but also because he tends to lose interest.

I think Paul Lambert as Head Coach + good Director of Football would be a great option over the long-term. AVB, despite coming across as a whiny humourless git, wouldn't be a bad option either.

 

[ItsBoris]

TBH, I think you are overreacting a touch.
For a start, I believe Rodgers will need two or three arduous years at Liverpool, maybe four, before he gets them competing. Even then ther eis still the issue of the missing stadium. Will he get that type of patience from the Scouse fans with their overweening sense of entitlement? I doubt it. More like they will be expecting to be challenging for the title by november, when, frankly, even with a genuinely top manager I think that they have their work cut out to even break the top 4 within the foreseable. This is honestly no sour grapes, but I think we were a much better fit for him than that shower. No new stadium even planned, a decidedly inferior squad, medieval training facilities, a youth team packed with traditional English/British youth player types, all physicality and competitive edge, and no finesse - does he know what he has taken on?

And, really, despite issues with Mr Redknapp, largely to do with his narcissistic, verbal diarhaeah media obsession, going missing when he thought he was getting the England job, sheeeeee-ite, we still finished 4th. With our squad + and him concentrating on the job, I don;t think we will be in too much trouble, TBH. With a few strategic additions, I think we'll will be good to go. Verts will be a good start, and one of our biggest problems last season was the uncertainty at centre-half. And we have to believe the strike force will be better, and we have reason to believe it is so. Sandro will come on again.

COYS

I think you're underestimating them a bit SP. I think they'll be competing for top 4 at least next year.

First, I think they are upgrading massively on their manager. Time will tell, but you can just see that Rodgers has a little more going on up there than "King Kenny." (Maybe he's more charismatic ).

Second, they have good players coming back into their team (better than the current ones) - Aquilani, Lucas, and Cole. Replacing Henderson, Spearing, and Downing with those 3 would already be a massive improvement. I expect them to spend some money as well this summer. They need some decent wingers, a central midfielder, and a striker imo. Their defense was pretty good last season (better than our's). Plus they have a player coming through their academy - Raheem Sterling- who is supposed to be pretty good.

Say hypothetically they signed Siggurdson (which looks likely), A. Johnson and Affelay, plus a midfielder such as Dembele or M'Villa, and a striker like KJH, they could be very competitive next season. Despite being in 8th, they still have the money and pulling power, so I certainly see them as a great threat this coming season, not 3 years down the line. IMO they will spend wisely this summer, because Rodgers seems to have an eye for players that fit his style. It won't be tens of millions for terrible British players who can't play.

 

[Qualsonic]

Disagree - we expected them to do well last season as well, and look what happened. I have doubts on how well Rodgers will adapt to a "big" club in his first year. (Will he have a DoF?). Stick with him, however, and they may well be a threat in 3 years time, even 1 or 2.

 

[ItsBoris]

Disagree - we expected them to do well last season as well, and look what happened. I have doubts on how well Rodgers will adapt to a "big" club in his first year. (Will he have a DoF?). Stick with him, however, and they may well be a threat in 3 years time, even 1 or 2.

What kind of reasoning is that? You can't say this season will resemble last season when all the variables have changed. It might, but there are good reasons to think it won't. I would like to hear your reasons for thinking that they won't improve (you disagreed with my post saying they would), considering that they have better players coming back into their team, a new manager who seems to understand football, and money to spend.

 

[Qualsonic]

I would expect them to improve on 8th (?) place, but not to be "competing for top 4 at least next year", even with the returning players you mentioned - who, lets face it, aren't exactly all that (Aquilani, Cole and Lucas).

Clearly a lot depends on who they bring in (have they really got money to spend), but all in all I don't think they have a top 4 squad. Plus, as I said before, my gut feeling says thta Rodgers will not hit the ground running in his first season.

 

[Misfit]

Rodgers is a fecking disaster for us. Sure, Pool in comparison with other 5 clubs they're looking to compete with have a lot of military medium players but Rodgers got championship and league 1 players withing a gnat's hair of a top half finish.

He can make a team greater than the sum of its parts. They were a fair ways behind top 4 for sure - I think about 16 or 17 pts - but if anyone can get them to eek out 3 or 4 more wins from draws and a couple of draws from losses, this guy might pull it off. All of a sudden, they're right there sniffing around the top 4.

Keeping the Lampard and JT of Liverpewel (Stevie G and Donkey Carra) sweet will be his toughest tast this season, imo. If they decide they don't like him, they'll kick up again and have him shit-canned as they did with FSW and Woy.

 

[ItsBoris]

I would expect them to improve on 8th (?) place, but not to be "competing for top 4 at least next year", even with the returning players you mentioned - who, lets face it, aren't exactly all that (Aquilani, Cole and Lucas).

Clearly a lot depends on who they bring in (have they really got money to spend), but all in all I don't think they have a top 4 squad. Plus, as I said before, my gut feeling says thta Rodgers will not hit the ground running in his first season.

Well, statistically, Lucas was the best defensive midfielder in the league up to his injury. He's an excellent player and they missed him greatly. If you look at their results with and without him, you'll see.

Aquilani is a tidy player and passer of the ball. Certainly an improvement on Charlie Adam or Spearing. Cole I don't rate highly but certainly would rather have him than Downing.

Their defense was better than our's, Arsenal's, and Chelsea's last season. So just looking at midfield and offensive signings, if say they got Johnson, Siggurdson, and KJH, they could field a front 6 of:

-----Lucas Gerrard-----
Suarez Siggurdson A. Johnson
------------KJH--------------

So you can "disagree" if you like but those signings are within their means and I would be astounded if they don't do as much as that at the minimum. Put it on top of an already pretty good defense and they certainly could challenge for the top 4 next season at least, especially if Rodgers gets them playing in his style, and because they already have a decent squad to back it up.

Btw, do you know that Juventus finished 7th in both seasons between 2009 and 2011 in the Serie A, then won the title in an undefeated season most recently? They switched to a promising young manager with a vision for the future (at the beginning of this season). He was even appointed on the 31st of May, 2011. Sound familiar? The point is don't be so quick to write off a club with tremendous history. Liverpool is still probably one of the biggest 5 or 6 clubs in world football and certainly has the resources and pulling power to back their new manager.

 

[Qualsonic]

That's a nice point about Juve (though you could say they improved once they got rid of Aquilani ), but I still disagree about Liverpool challenging for top 4 next year.

 

[Qualsonic]

Plus Conte is a Juventino - more reminiscent of Dalgliesh's first stint as player-manager, fan's favourite, club man.

There's going to be a lot more pressure on Rodgers to get the results at Liverpool than at Swansea - if he has a bad run of results, will he have the strength of character to stick to his philosophy or will he be forced to grind out a few ugly wins under pressure from fans, board, media, dressing room, etc.

I wish him well.

 

[adiepf]

No. I was fairly torn but I simply don't believe he has anything remotely approaching a long term, or even a medium term, strategy for us and at this stage in time we sorely need one.

THIS

 

[Ribble]

Plus Conte is a Juventino - more reminiscent of Dalgliesh's first stint as player-manager, fan's favourite, club man.

Also brought in 1/3 of the starting lineup this season!

 

[m*****73]

You are bang on Monta. It's not a simple yes or no.

Who knows if Harry, with no distracions such as England next season, couldn't have us playing the same way and winning as we were up to february, for the whole of next season. It's quite possible that he could.

He just needs to be backed or sacked.

Absolutely 100% agree.

 

[StartingPrice]

Rodgers is a fecking disaster for us. Sure, Pool in comparison with other 5 clubs they're looking to compete with have a lot of military medium players but Rodgers got championship and league 1 players withing a gnat's hair of a top half finish.

He can make a team greater than the sum of its parts. They were a fair ways behind top 4 for sure - I think about 16 or 17 pts - but if anyone can get them to eek out 3 or 4 more wins from draws and a couple of draws from losses, this guy might pull it off. All of a sudden, they're right there sniffing around the top 4.

Keeping the Lampard and JT of Liverpewel (Stevie G and Donkey Carra) sweet will be his toughest tast this season, imo. If they decide they don't like him, they'll kick up again and have him shit-canned as they did with FSW and Woy.

He will give it a good go, but, like I said, is he going to get the patience from the fans to develop them into a team that can get back competing for a CL place again (which, in itself will take all of next season and probably the next), and then get the further time and resources to make them capable of launching title challenges. Afaiac, ATM, their youth set-up and infrastructure is miles behind ours; they have no new stadium underway and no realistic plans for a new stadium; and they have, ATM, clearly the weakest squad out of all of the top six sides (not forgetting, of course, that Newcastle and Everton finsihed above them, and they only finished above Fulham on goal difference). They will improve their squad, and Rodgers will improve the players they already have, in the time he is given, but unless they can adress these issues, I can't see them making a title challenge in the next five years, while their youth set-up and infrastructure are overhauled (short of getting a RomanMansour sugar-daddy), bu which stage we will have our new stadium built, anyway, and I don't think the Scouse fans will have patience with that type of timescale

Like I said, I rate Rodgers, but I think we would be a much better fit for him than Liverpool, and his success depends as much upon the club making the infrastructural changes, etc., and in being given time and patience to do his job, as it does in what difference he will be able to make this season and next.

I think you're underestimating them a bit SP. I think they'll be competing for top 4 at least next year.

First, I think they are upgrading massively on their manager. Time will tell, but you can just see that Rodgers has a little more going on up there than "King Kenny." (Maybe he's more charismatic ).

Second, they have good players coming back into their team (better than the current ones) - Aquilani, Lucas, and Cole. Replacing Henderson, Spearing, and Downing with those 3 would already be a massive improvement. I expect them to spend some money as well this summer. They need some decent wingers, a central midfielder, and a striker imo. Their defense was pretty good last season (better than our's). Plus they have a player coming through their academy - Raheem Sterling- who is supposed to be pretty good.

Say hypothetically they signed Siggurdson (which looks likely), A. Johnson and Affelay, plus a midfielder such as Dembele or M'Villa, and a striker like KJH, they could be very competitive next season. Despite being in 8th, they still have the money and pulling power, so I certainly see them as a great threat this coming season, not 3 years down the line. IMO they will spend wisely this summer, because Rodgers seems to have an eye for players that fit his style. It won't be tens of millions for terrible British players who can't play.

Time will tell which of us is right, Boris.
But let me just note, the issues with their first team squad was only one of the issues I underlined, and you haven't adressed the other issues at all. Remember, I am not disagreeing with anyone that given time and resources Rodgers could probably get them competing at the very top. What I am questioning is whether he will get time and the support/resources he will need to take Liverpool to where they, and, just as importantly, their fans, believe they should be - and a lot of their fans live in a World where it is permanently the 1980s and they are entitled to a title challenge every year. Look at how little time Woy was given - and even King Kenny, because he didn't have them where their demands said they should be quickly enough, regardless of their current level in terms of playing staff, youth product ant match-day revenues.

They have no new stadium development planned or underway - we all know how much this has held us back in terms of player acquisitions and wages. Their training facilities are medieveal, by all accounts, are positively medieval. And their youth seems to have focussed on recruiting players and following methods that have been the absolute nadir, the antithesis of everything that has been identified as best practice for English/British football to move forward. You mention Raheem Sterling - a player who, I believe, was very discontented and linked with favouring a move to us, I may add. Well, yeah. that is one youth player (I've watched him and he looked very good), but the rest of the team is so evidently composed of kids who were big and physical at an early age, and trained to play direct football and be competitive. That is the exact opposite of what Rodgers wants, and, as I said, embodies everything that was identified as hindering English/British football from producing players with the technical ability needed to compete internationally, and exactly where clubs like Southampton (1st) and later ourselves have , have worked and altered our infrastructure to develop. If you want to make a direct comparison, we have far more exciting looking youth players than they have (basically, one, Sterling), and we have worked at inculcating a club style, and facilitating ease of transition from one squad to a higher one. I would prefer our youth prospects, thanks.

As for their first team squad: well yeah, they could improve this season, but they were a long way behind, and everyone else will be improving as well. Even with the improvemnts they make, I would still say the best they can hope for for the next couple of seasons, even with a manager like Rodgers will be competing for a CL place.

I think you are overestimating them because of their name, TBH.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think this thread is proof enough that there is no 'simple' yes or no to the Harry debate.

I would like to see a top manager with this group of players who are the best I've seen at Spurs and think are certainly comparable to City and United (Utd especially), and with the excellent way we are run I think the potential for our club is huge. With a new stadium in the pipeline, London based which is a huge draw, a fine history to look back on that has always kept our profile around Europe there even in dark times then I don't think it is particularly some rampant, blinding sense of entitlement to believe we should be aiming to take this club to the stars.

Now that's where I don't think Harry fits in I'm afraid, although it would be madness to suggest that he hasn't been generally a force for good at Spurs, I just think the higher we've crept the flaws in his approach have been magnified, the fine lines that top coaches and managers habitually find themselves on the better side of H doesn't. This isn't particularly a criticism, it's saying I think Redknapp has possibly reached the ceiling of his career that his approach was likely to take him, and leading an EPL team to the top 4 twice, the CL QFs, 2 Fa Cup Semis and a CC Final is testament to that. That's not bad, it's very good - most people on this forum will never make it the same level, comparatively, in their careers and many of those will consider that they have had a good career - which they probably have. We're talking about 'best' and 'next best' here, not 'great' and 'shit'.

And that's the dilemma, stick or twist. Stick with Harry and you know what you're going to get, twist and we could bomb, but we could also announce ourselves at the top table and stay there - although in the EPL you get the impression that a billionaire is required to help with that harsh reality that is money.