Dimitar Berbatov (Transfer Completed)

[Liamstamb]

Didn't we manage to finish 5th without Berbatov?

Much as I'd like him to stay, I certainly wouldn't write off our chances were he to leave, especially considering the purchases we've already made this summer.

Yeah but the point is mate we don't wanna just scrape luckily into 4th like Everton did a few years ago,we wanna go as far as we can,and the more world class players we have the closer 4th,3rd and even making a title challange as a consistent yearly thing get.

We wanna be in it for the long run challanging at the top, not just a one hit wonder like Everton then not qualify.

I know it's one step at a time but

 

[Liamstamb]

Didn't we manage to finish 5th without Berbatov?

Much as I'd like him to stay, I certainly wouldn't write off our chances were he to leave, especially considering the purchases we've already made this summer.

Yeah but the point is mate we don't wanna just scrape luckily into 4th like Everton did a few years ago,we wanna go as far as we can,and the more world class players we have the closer 4th,3rd and even making a title challange as a consistent yearly thing get.

We wanna be in it for the long run challanging at the top, not just a one hit wonder like Everton then not qualify.

I know it's one step at a time but we get rif of world class players and we just make everything so much harder for ourselves.

 

[Bonjour]

Yeah but the point is mate we don't wanna just scrape luckily into 4th like Everton did a few years ago,we wanna go as far as we can,and the more world class players we have the closer 4th,3rd and even making a title challange as a consistent yearly thing get.

We wanna be in it for the long run challanging at the top, not just a one hit wonder like Everton then not qualify.

I know it's one step at a time but

I totally agree.

I just wouldn't be so dismissive of our chances achieving it sans-Berbatov.

A far more important piece of the jigsaw is in place in the form of Juande Ramos.

 

[Liamstamb]

I totally agree.

I just wouldn't be so dismissive of our chances achieving it sans-Berbatov.

A far more important piece of the jigsaw is in place in the form of Juande Ramos.

You're right,But Juande needs the tools to work with.Fergie wouldn't win a thing with Man U without his World Class Players.

 

[fazza]

Fergie did mould about 11 youngsters from the united youth academy to become world class players you know, Beckham, Neville(s), Scholes, Giggs, Butt etc in the 90's.

 

[Jody]

Fergie did mould about 11 youngsters from the united youth academy to become world class players you know, Beckham, Neville(s), Scholes, Giggs, Butt etc in the 90's.

There wasn't really an etc though, I think that was it mate.

 

[sloth]

If we're going to sell Berbatov to Man U,then we better make sure it's not a minute before we have signed a Samual Eto or David Villa calabre player first.

We certainly want to have signed our replacement first otherwise the selling club will immediately hike their fee.

Selling Berbatov and replacing him with Milito's and Huntallar's just isn't good enough and isn't gonna get us into the top 4.

That sounds short-sighted to me and overly pessimistic.

Levy's big ambition is apparently to get us into the top 4.Well he ain't gonna realise that ambition, selling a world class player and replacing him with a good one.The forward line will not be as good.

The goal has got to be to have a better team over all with the available resources.

Liverpool struggle to challange for the league title cause apart from Gerrard and Torres, they don't have enough world class players.

I'm not sure Gerard hasn't held them back these last few seasons, but I take your point, our task is to keep on unearthing world-class players and to accept that when we do we'll have them poached by bigger clubs. Getting to be a big club ourselves is a project of several seasons and berbatov certainly won't still be a Spurs player when/if we ever get there.

The teams with the most ''world class players'' are the ones nearer the top.Hence why Man U and Chelsea have the most.Then Liverpool and Arsenal slightly less but more than the rest.

True, but your assumption is that you always have to buy players who are already World Class. I don't think we'll get to be a big club chasing after the established stars of world football, but by unearthing the world stars of the future.

Then their is Spurs, with one truly world class player ever present, up until this point.( Berbatov), King has been missing for most of the last 2 years, and now this year we've added Modric.

Berbatov wasn't considered world class when we bought him.

So we could conceiveably go from 1, to 3 world class players in our 1st team and give ourselves a chance.

It would be better if he stayed but given we don't live in a perfect world we have to have a way to achieve our goals in the less ideal situation we find ourselves in. I'm much less pessimistic about our chances of doing this than you are i think.

If we sell world class for good, it's 5th-6th placed finishes and Carling cup runs, for a good few more years yet.

I think it's get in the top four and then stay there over the next two or three seasons, I am also of the opinion that Ramos' key to success (if he's to bring success) is not about individual super-stars but about a super-star team.

Their comes a point when Levy has to say to himself, ok 2 years ago we put ourselves back by selling one of our most important players in Carrick,he had 2 years left on his contract, this guy has 4.Do i really want to risk another 2 years of getting back to where we are now, on the edge of really doing something big.

Ok, he can sulk but lets be honest, berba would bore himself to death, constantly deliberately sulking and playing badly.

Hes a football player, he loves playing the game,it would be harder for him to play badly, than for him to play his natural game.You could say it would be unatural, for him to deliberatelty ''play badly''.

Hes spent his whole life playing a certain way, ( very well), he would get fed up with himself, deliberately playing badly for more than a week or 2.It's human nature, you can only sulk about 1 thing for so long.

Think about a girl you were well into who rejected you, or a really good job you missed out on?Sure you thought the whole world was against you and sulked for a while,but then life goes on around you, and you get bored of sulking and move on and get over it fairly quickly.

If we tell berbatov we really want to keep him,and he starts enjoying playing with Modric,Dos Santos and a fit King and Bale.The sulking over not getting a move to man U won't last long.It's human nature.

Look at Alves at Sevilla,he was made to stay last year.He still played just as well.As will Ronaldo, if he stays at United.He'll sulk like he is at the moment,but as soon as he starts playing again, he'll get over it and be just as good.Mark my words.

This idea, that a team have to sell cause a player is gonna sulk and play badly on purpose for eternity is bullshit.Reality says that you can only sulk for so long,then you just get on with it,and then it's usually alright anyway.

And there we have it, you have supreme confidence in Berbatov's attitude were he to be made to stay against his wishes. I think the picture you paint flies in the face of what I know of human nature, but that's just my opinion.

 

[deathtoarsenal]

I can't see how this 'illegal contact' that Real made with Ronaldo is any worse than what United are doing here with Berbatov. Fucking hypocrites.

What illegal contact have United made with Berbatov and how have United stirred the situation up in the press? United have made a bid and that's it for now. :-|

 

[Liamstamb]

Fergie did mould about 11 youngsters from the united youth academy to become world class players you know, Beckham, Neville(s), Scholes, Giggs, Butt etc in the 90's.

The Neville's and Nicky Butt were not world class and would have done nothing without the likes of Cantona,Schemicheal,Van nistelrooy,Keane,Stam,Ferdinand,Rooney and Ronaldo in the team with them.

 

[fazza]

There wasn't really an etc though, I think that was it mate.

Damn you got me, I was desperately looking for a full 11, ummm Schmeichel wasn't world class at the time. :grin:

 

[michael69]

And there we have it, you have supreme confidence in Berbatov's attitude were he to be made to stay against his wishes. I think the picture you paint flies in the face of what I know of human nature, but that's just my opinion.

I think Liamstamb made a good argument backed with examples. You, on other hand, have not backed up your argument at all that this flies in the face of human nature.

FACT - Dani Alves was furious that Sevilla did not sell him to Chelsea last summer. Remember, Chelsea offered EXACTLY what Sevilla demanded, then Sevilla moved the goal posts by upping the price again. Well, Alves had another stellar season, this time as the new CAPTAIN of the team!

I ask you, Sloth, to explain the "human nature" behind how this occured?

 

[mil1lion]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mil1lion
But we're the ones setting the price, not the market itself. The fact is, we have overvalued Berbatov. Do you know the exact asking price? Are you certain that manyoo wouldn't pay it? No, but i know that we turned down a bid of around £24m out of hand from AC Milan. ie We wouldn't even negotiate, which says that we're after a lot more. Its also widely suggested that we told Chelsea £40m as a hands off message a few months back. And yes, i know Man Utd wont pay £30m plus on a 27 year old (Rooney an Rio?)
We know he isn't worth £30m plus, but we have all the cards in our hands. He's on a long term contract and we dont have to sell. Because the Webster clause exists only in players' imagination and isn't a part of the rules. No, it isn't effective in this case. He's too old and we have an option to extend his contract, which would make it invalid anyway. Do you not think the club are aware of the Webster Clause? If not, then why are they coming out saying that he is under a long term contract, and why would we risk not selling him in this window by holding out for big money?

The reason we haven't come out and said he's not for sale, is because Berbatov wants to move to a bigger club if they come in for him. So we put a hefty value over him instead. Its another way of saying that he's not for sale, but saying to Berbatov that we'll sell if someone comes in with the money. It's another way to say that he is stupid and cannot see what every ordinary fan on SC is capable of. ??The only time we'll sell for around £25m, will be next summer.

I'm betting that Levy would rather sell Berbatov for £20m next summer than £30m this summer. He knows that this season is our best yet, to qualify for the Champions League. We need Berbatov to do that. Because you know he is going to play at his best even if Levy forced him to stay for a second time. Exactly like he played at his best when after the first 3 months last season we were in the relegation zone. Yes. He was one of our best players last season. He wasn't at his best at times that the rest of the team were poor. Coincidence? No. He is a forward, and we failed last season because of our aweful defending and lack of balance in midfield. Keane and Berbatov were both excellent last season. So if we make the Champions League, then that £10m wont matter. If we dont make the Champions League this season, then we'll definately sell him. We'll still drive a hard bargain, and sell for nearer £25m, knowing that he'd still have 3 years on his contract.

Bottom line, we're in control.
Bottom line, i'm afraid you may be mistaken. i'm afraid it may be you who is mistaken

FACT. Daniel Levy has only sold 1 key player since he was in charge. Michael Carrick for £18m. He was 24 with 2 years left on his contract. Berbatov is 27 with 2 years plus an option (our option) of another 2 years. Hence, we're in control.

 

[sashka]

What illegal contact have United made with Berbatov and how have United stirred the situation up in the press? United have made a bid and that's it for now. :-|

do we know this for fact? I have only seen paper reports and ITK comments following paper reports

 

[The Apprentice]

United have always been ****s when it comes to transfers. They wheel away, leaking shit to the press, tapping playersup but all the while cry blue murder when it happens back to them.

I really, really hope that Ronaldo goes to Real. Just for the look on drunk Alex's face. I'm sure the United fans would think about protesting outside the ground but it's a long journey from London/Shanghai.

 

[Liamstamb]

We certainly want to have signed our replacement first otherwise the selling club will immediately hike their fee.

That sounds short-sighted to me and overly pessimistic.


The goal has got to be to have a better team over all with the available resources.


I'm not sure Gerard hasn't held them back these last few seasons, but I take your point, our task is to keep on unearthing world-class players and to accept that when we do we'll have them poached by bigger clubs. Getting to be a big club ourselves is a project of several seasons and berbatov certainly won't still be a Spurs player when/if we ever get there.

True, but your assumption is that you always have to buy players who are already World Class. I don't think we'll get to be a big club chasing after the established stars of world football, but by unearthing the world stars of the future.


Berbatov wasn't considered world class when we bought him.


It would be better if he stayed but given we don't live in a perfect world we have to have a way to achieve our goals in the less ideal situation we find ourselves in. I'm much less pessimistic about our chances of doing this than you are i think.

I think it's get in the top four and then stay there over the next two or three seasons, I am also of the opinion that Ramos' key to success (if he's to bring success) is not about individual super-stars but about a super-star team.


And there we have it, you have supreme confidence in Berbatov's attitude were he to be made to stay against his wishes. I think the picture you paint flies in the face of what I know of human nature, but that's just my opinion.

If we sell Berbatov and how likely is it we are gonna get a better striker?

We are looking for a defensive midfielder already, we don't need to sell berbatov to finance one thats what you don't seem to understand?

So we sell berbatov, and with the money bring in Huntallar and a defensive midfielder, and say bentley.

Is that better than having berbatov, a defensive midfielder and bentley?No it's not casue Berbatov is a better player than a huntallar.

We'd have to bring in with the berbatov money in order to be just as good, Huntallar,a defensive midfielder,bentley,and another 2 very very good players,plus a back up centre back and a back up goalkeeper.

Thats another 7 players,and you know how long it takes for one deal to go through never mind 7, we'd never get it all done in time.

I agree you have to unearth the stars of the future,this is a gamble and 90% of the time doesn't come off.Kaboul,boteng ect.Spending berbatov money on hopeful stars of the future like these is too much of a shot in the dark.When you get a berbatov and a modric you have to add to them not try and replace it's too hit and miss and rarely works out simple as.

For all those who go on about look at Arsenal.They havn't looked like winning a thing since Viera,Henry,Pires,Bergkamp left them.

Once you get world class players at tottenham you gotta keep them.

 

[mil1lion]

Didn't we manage to finish 5th without Berbatov?

Much as I'd like him to stay, I certainly wouldn't write off our chances were he to leave, especially considering the purchases we've already made this summer.

We finished 5th (almost 4th) mostly because of Ledley King. We now have King back, and we have Woodgate who is equally as good. Our squad has moved on a lot since then, and people underestimate that because of where we finished last season. Are Hutton and Bale not better then Stalteri and Lee? Is Gomes not better then Robinson? Is Woodgate not better then Dawson? (or Naybet, if you look at it the other way) Is Modric not an improvement on Jenas? Is Keane not a better player now? The only downfall since then (and a pretty big one) is the loss of Michael Carrick.

We should do everything possible to keep Berbatov. However, if we sell him, then i for one will believe we can finish in the top 4 provided we replace Carrick. Finding a top quality defensive midfielder is more important in my mind, then whether we keep Dimitar Berbatov.

 

[Liamstamb]

I think Liamstamb made a good argument backed with examples. You, on other hand, have not backed up your argument at all that this flies in the face of human nature.

FACT - Dani Alves was furious that Sevilla did not sell him to Chelsea last summer. Remember, Chelsea offered EXACTLY what Sevilla demanded, then Sevilla moved the goal posts by upping the price again. Well, Alves had another stellar season, this time as the new CAPTAIN of the team!

I ask you, Sloth, to explain the "human nature" behind how this occured?

Indeed over to you Mr Sloth?

 

[sloth]

I think Liamstamb made a good argument backed with examples. You, on other hand, have not backed up your argument at all that this flies in the face of human nature.

FACT - Dani Alves was furious that Sevilla did not sell him to Chelsea last summer. Remember, Chelsea offered EXACTLY what Sevilla demanded, then Sevilla moved the goal posts by upping the price again. Well, Alves had another stellar season, this time as the new CAPTAIN of the team!

I ask you, Sloth, to explain the "human nature" behind how this occured?

I could write a nice little explanation which would fit the facts and it would prove absolutely nothing. I could produce examples of why I'm right and Liam's wrong until the cows come home and I'd prove absolutely nothing except that I'm good at making up reasons and creating scenarios to prove I'm right. That's why I just offered my opinion.

If you want a bone to chew on however, first ask yourself what you want to be true, second ask yourself what other prejudices you might hold, then try and find our why you might be wrong, and then try and find reasons why the other guy might be right and finally let your conclusion flow from that. Follow that method religiously and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Petyr]

Mil1lion

No, but i know that we turned down a bid of around £24m out of hand from AC Milan. ie We wouldn't even negotiate, which says that we're after a lot more. Its also widely suggested that we told Chelsea £40m as a hands off message a few months back. And yes, i know Man Utd wont pay £30m plus on a 27 year old (Rooney an Rio?)

Err, you don't know it unless you take some ITKs reports as the gospel.

We know he isn't worth £30m plus, but we have all the cards in our hands. He's on a long term contract and we dont have to sell. Because the Webster clause exists only in players' imagination and isn't a part of the rules. No, it isn't effective in this case. He's too old and we have an option to extend his contract, which would make it invalid anyway. Do you not think the club are aware of the Webster Clause? If not, then why are they coming out saying that he is under a long term contract, and why would we risk not selling him in this window by holding out for big money?

Unconvincing. The fact is Berbatov would have completed 3 years at Spurs after next season which allows him to buy out the contract. The option for 2 years extension, if it exists, is a part of the old contract and its triggering does not create a new contract. The club is aware of that and this may be one of the main reasons why it would sell.


The reason we haven't come out and said he's not for sale, is because Berbatov wants to move to a bigger club if they come in for him. So we put a hefty value over him instead. Its another way of saying that he's not for sale, but saying to Berbatov that we'll sell if someone comes in with the money. It's another way to say that he is stupid and cannot see what every ordinary fan on SC is capable of. ??The only time we'll sell for around £25m, will be next summer.

You think Berbatov cannot get that there is little or no difference between declaring he is not for sale and pricing him out of the market?

I'm betting that Levy would rather sell Berbatov for £20m next summer than £30m this summer. He knows that this season is our best yet, to qualify for the Champions League. We need Berbatov to do that. Because you know he is going to play at his best even if Levy forced him to stay for a second time. Exactly like he played at his best when after the first 3 months last season we were in the relegation zone. Yes. He was one of our best players last season. He wasn't at his best at times that the rest of the team were poor. Coincidence? No. He is a forward, and we failed last season because of our aweful defending and lack of balance in midfield. Keane and Berbatov were both excellent last season. So if we make the Champions League, then that £10m wont matter. If we dont make the Champions League this season, then we'll definately sell him. We'll still drive a hard bargain, and sell for nearer £25m, knowing that he'd still have 3 years on his contract.

Berbatov was excellent after Ramos came, before that he scored 2 goals for 3 months, hardly an excellent form. It was a bad period for him that came immediately after Levy stopped him for manyoo.

 

[xtrac]

absolute rubbish!!! Berba and Keane will start the season in a Spurs shirt, there is know concrete evidence to suggest otherwise, other than paper talk and ITK, for which you take with a pinch of salt, not to mention there track records of late. The only ITK that has made any sense is Dan, and the fact a clampdown on leaks would suggest some ITK is getting as bad as the papers.