Last Bit of UEFA Chat

[Kendall]

Fans want success. That's why managers get sacked if they don't provide that success.

Managers also get sacked if they get success but play shit football.

see capello at madrid, see mourinho at chelski

 

[Clydey]

Managers also get sacked if they get success but play shit football.

see capello at madrid, see mourinho at chelski

No, they don't. Mourinho got sacked for his failure to win the CL.

Capello was the same. Had bugger all to do with style. And you know it. No manager ever gets sacked for having success (however the board defines it) and not playing eye-catching football.

Edit: Actually, Real Madrid is the only club where that might actually happen. And I say "might" because they brought in Capello specifically to make them more solid. They did not bring him in to play all out attacking football.

 

[bomberH]

Clydey, this seems to have started from DC's comments which did come across as arrogant. Comparing Rangers fans to Geordies is laughable because Rangers have actually won shitloads, allbeit in a not so great league.

But... Rangers were awful tonight and their record throughout this year's tournament does suggest they are a very negative team and maybe got what they deserved tonight. I remember watching Spurs under George Graham and we were winning 1-0 quite a few times but i distinctly remember walking back to my car after matches being very unimpressed by it all, even though our defence was solid, the tactics were dire. Man U prove you can have a great defence and play excellent football.

I was a total neutral, i certainly don't hate Scotland or any Scottish teams (in fact i would've been very happy for Rangers and their fans if they'd have won) and when i sit at home watching matches as a neutral, i want to be entertained. But the entertainment value certainly wasn't coming from Rangers, they were just awful - and they have been throughout (tactically). Six goalless draws is it? The only selfish reason i didn't care that Rangers didn't win was because i want Spurs to be the first British club in ages to win it. That's just a natural bias.

You're right about football being a business and it's up to Rangers if they want to play their negative football in an attempt to win a massive cup. But it doesn't mean people should like or accept it because it made for a terrible game and any criticism should be accepted. Personally, i think they've done amazingly well to get to the final but watching their games as a neutral was a very, very boring experience and i won't be watching them in Europe again in a hurry. It shouldn't matter that they haven't got millions to spend, any manager knows how to play attractive football, they just choose not to because they think lumping it up or playing on the counter (which can be done very attractively - see Arsenal) is more productive. One of the reasons Man U have got shitloads more admirers than Chelsea is because of their style of football.

So yep, winning is great and all that, but if a team wants to gain plaudits and not be abused like Chelsea or Bolton, then play nice football. Or at least try to.

 

[lily_lane]

I was also struck how a Rangers match is the only place you'll see folk en masse waving the union jack nowadays - apart from at a Royal Wedding!

Eek

 

[Blotto]

For me, the most telling part of the match was when Rangers had to attack--time was against them and they brought on Boyd, playing with 3 forwards they were terrible. Zenit had large chunks of possession and then Novo missed a gift right in front of the net, at least in part because of confusion with one of his own players (an attacking sub, if I recall correctly). Moments latter they were carved up (yet again) by Arshavin & Co. for the goal that killed them off. They were scattered at the back, they had to change tactics and it completely threw them off and Zenit pounced. Zenit won, they not only won but they did so with style and tactical acumen--they exploited Rangers' weakness well, particularly late on. Say what you will, but the better side won.

BTW, money and beautiful football don't always go together--witness the Chavs. In fact, I don't really understand what tactics and money have to do with each other at all...:shrug:
Anyway, aren't the Gers, along with Celtic, easily one of the richest clubs in Scotland--who regularly buy up talent from other less well off sides? Don't sound like beggars to me...

 

[DC_Boy]

H all - I apologise to Clydey and others if I went OTT last night (beer and football are a potent mix - funnily enough Rangers are my fave Scottish team

However, I'll take you back to 1967 when as a kid I rushed home to cheer Celtic on to victory - but then as I grew up I began to relaise that far from cheering English clubs the Scots were cheeering against us - I then heard the Scottish nonsense about they were the world champions becuase they beat us in 67 (delusional or what) - I then saw them smash up Wembley- I then saw thieir fans running amok in London time and again

So I'm afraid these days unless it benefits England or spurs or we have a Spurs or ex spurs involved I back against all Scottish clubs the same way (though probably not as wholeheartedly) as so many Scots back against us english

And with regards to that banner - that is delusional - I stick by my comments there 100% - yeah put a banner up saying you've won more Scottish titles than anyone else - but 'World's most successful club' ridiculous hubris and asking for derision - dominating a two team minor European league is not the same as world success - I repeat we've won three times as many trophies as Rangers and we're not even england's most successful club

oh and yes I am***** off with Rangers for dropping into the UEFA and depriving us of Hutton - because I firmly believe with Hutton we could have been in that final - it's not Rangers fault i know - but logic and football don't always go hand in hand

Anyway to repeat I like Rangers (in a domestic context) and hope they win the SPL - but that will not enchance their credibility as world's most succesful club - winning a European trophy would - winning a European trophy in style like spurs have done - even more so

Oh and while I'm at it - and tell me if i'm wrong - but I believe that when Robbie Keane got injured pre-season v Rangers a few years back - doing a lot of damage to our lge campaign - a considerable number of Rs fans were cheering the sight of him being stretchered off - apologies in advance if I'm wrong there - but I'm sure I'm not

Rangers according to the radio commentary I listened to played an over robust game for a pre-season friendly and the tackle that did Keane was less than friendly apparently - again I wasn't there but that's how I remember it and so all these things are in my 'sub-conscious' when I see Rangers play -

 

[Clydey]

Clydey, this seems to have started from DC's comments which did come across as arrogant. Comparing Rangers fans to Geordies is laughable because Rangers have actually won shitloads, allbeit in a not so great league.

But... Rangers were awful tonight and their record throughout this year's tournament does suggest they are a very negative team and maybe got what they deserved tonight. I remember watching Spurs under George Graham and we were winning 1-0 quite a few times but i distinctly remember walking back to my car after matches being very unimpressed by it all, even though our defence was solid, the tactics were dire. Man U prove you can have a great defence and play excellent football.

I was a total neutral, i certainly don't hate Scotland or any Scottish teams (in fact i would've been very happy for Rangers and their fans if they'd have won) and when i sit at home watching matches as a neutral, i want to be entertained. But the entertainment value certainly wasn't coming from Rangers, they were just awful - and they have been throughout (tactically). Six goalless draws is it? The only selfish reason i didn't care that Rangers didn't win was because i want Spurs to be the first British club in ages to win it. That's just a natural bias.

You're right about football being a business and it's up to Rangers if they want to play their negative football in an attempt to win a massive cup. But it doesn't mean people should like or accept it because it made for a terrible game and any criticism should be accepted. Personally, i think they've done amazingly well to get to the final but watching their games as a neutral was a very, very boring experience and i won't be watching them in Europe again in a hurry. It shouldn't matter that they haven't got millions to spend, any manager knows how to play attractive football, they just choose not to because they think lumping it up or playing on the counter (which can be done very attractively - see Arsenal) is more productive. One of the reasons Man U have got shitloads more admirers than Chelsea is because of their style of football.

So yep, winning is great and all that, but if a team wants to gain plaudits and not be abused like Chelsea or Bolton, then play nice football. Or at least try to.

It's not as simple as that. Yes, they could play attractive football, but they don't have the players to do that AND be successful. Hopefully that will change next season now that they have some cash to spend. It isn't always possible to play attractive football and win. You need the right players.

Also, I'd disagree that Rangers were awful. In the first half? They weren't great. In the second half, however, I thought they made a real game of it. They created as many chances as Zenit, in fact. Unless you're counting Zenit's hopeful long range efforts. Even the commentator commented on how watchable the second half was.

So yes, the first half was pretty dire. The second half wasn't anything of the sort. In fact, to prove my point just look at Zenit's first goal. Rangers were caught very short at the back. Why? Because they had become more adventurous. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Clydey - hope you caught my apology above

Naturally you won't agree with much of the rest of my post - but I'll say something Rangers and Celtic fans have a passion for the game that I wish more Spurs fans had (I've got that passion for Spurs and if I could choose I'd rather have been a Celt or Rangers fan and been able to join in the singing the way yous do) but hey I was born English - I'm a spur and I'll support them best I can

 

[Kevealis]

Most successful club in world = Rangers. This is recognised by Guiness World Records and FIFA because of the unmatched 108 trophys won. So thats that put to bed.

The game itself, for what i seen of it because of the shambles at Picadilly Gardens was not particularly great but Zenit were the better team and won. Congrats to them on that. This doesnt for a second take away the pride i feel though because my team has faught against the odds against more technically gifted sides and made a european final for the first time since Scottish football was at a fairly good level. Anybody who grudges our place in the final can be placed in the "jealous" filing tray.

And as for the riots, it was an absolute disgrace and there can be no excuses. Shocking behavior from some of our fans which was all caused by the fact that thousands never seen the game because the incompetence of manchester police and manchester council who were not prepared for this final. Setting up a fanzone where the big screen doesnt work is absolutely unbelievable. Taking 15 minutes into the game to announce to the fans that the screen will not be fixed and that we have to go elsewhere is even worse. Being pushed around by the unhelpful police upon exiting the fanzone didnt go down well with those who had been allowed to drink freely for 9 hrs straight. Its a recipe for disaster. Im not trying to defend the actions of those fans who let down a club that has visited 9 countries this season without a single arrest, but simply explain what happened.

 

[DC_Boy]

Most successful club in world = Rangers. This is recognised by Guiness World Records and FIFA because of the unmatched 108 trophys won. So thats that put to bed.

.

Hi Kevealis Oh no it doesn't - there is no way that Rangers a re a more successful club than Man U or Real Madrid to take 2 of many examples -

Take a look at the UEFA rankings for a start

all Rangers are entitled to say is we've won the most domestic trophies and i'd put in brackets (in a minor 2 team European league)

It's delusion and hubris on a grand scale for a team that's never won the european Cup/CL or even been in a final I believe - that has one European trophy despite being almost guaranteed entry every year to one of the competitions - to call itself the world's most succesful club - actually considering our ratio of wins to entries I'd say Spurs are a more successful club than Rangers - and I don't even think we're close to being the world's most successful club

Your banner should read 'Scotland's most successful club' and even then I think Celtic fans win a European Cup in their cabinet would disagree

 

[Kevealis]

We've won 108 major trophies which is a world record so on that basis, then we do have a very strong claim to the worlds most successful club. You obviously disagree on what we define as success, but that doesnt mean our claim is laughable. Success for me is winning trophies. 108 times baby, with another 2 to come this season.

 

[DC_Boy]

We've won 108 major trophies which is a world record so on that basis, then we do have a very strong claim to the worlds most successful club. You obviously disagree on what we define as success, but that doesnt mean our claim is laughable. Success for me is winning trophies. 108 times baby, with another 2 to come this season.

fair enough - we'll always disagree on that one - and I wish Rangers well in in winning their next two - as I've said elsewhere Rangers are my favourite Scottish team - and of course want Hutton to get his SPL medal

 

[Kevealis]

I want him to get one too!

 

[bomberH]

And as for the riots, it was an absolute disgrace and there can be no excuses. Shocking behavior from some of our fans which was all caused by the fact that thousands never seen the game because the incompetence of manchester police and manchester council who were not prepared for this final. Setting up a fanzone where the big screen doesnt work is absolutely unbelievable. Taking 15 minutes into the game to announce to the fans that the screen will not be fixed and that we have to go elsewhere is even worse. Being pushed around by the unhelpful police upon exiting the fanzone didnt go down well with those who had been allowed to drink freely for 9 hrs straight. Its a recipe for disaster. Im not trying to defend the actions of those fans who let down a club that has visited 9 countries this season without a single arrest, but simply explain what happened.

No excuse for this, no matter what happened. The screen not working was pathetic but still no excuse. The fact that a hell of a lot of Scots hate England/the English is more than likely the reason this kicked off.

Would've been great to see the police machine gun the pack of wolves in this clip. This isn't a pop at Kev, just a pop at the ****s in the clip.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7402858.stm

 

[mkkid]

And as for the riots, it was an absolute disgrace and there can be no excuses. Shocking behavior from some of our fans which was all caused by the fact that thousands never seen the game because the incompetence of manchester police and manchester council who were not prepared for this final. Setting up a fanzone where the big screen doesnt work is absolutely unbelievable. Taking 15 minutes into the game to announce to the fans that the screen will not be fixed and that we have to go elsewhere is even worse. Being pushed around by the unhelpful police upon exiting the fanzone didnt go down well with those who had been allowed to drink freely for 9 hrs straight. Its a recipe for disaster. Im not trying to defend the actions of those fans who let down a club that has visited 9 countries this season without a single arrest, but simply explain what happened.

it was a good day until the end,i was in with the Zenith fans and had some good banter,they really did they suport there team.
As for outside a few of my pals got in the fans Zones and the screens failed.
The council told them to to another park ,outside the police said no and it started from there!
As soon as the game was over they called last orders,there was nothing to do and our coach picked us up at one.All we didi was walk the streets.I got hit on the head with a glass
as they totalled a police van.
How can Manchester hold a final and not be able to cope with the amount of people,Not enough toliets ,rubbish bins and fans services,hotel rooms,alley way were full of people sleeping there for the night!
They shut the train stations and people couldnt get anywhere.150k people and 60 arrests,id been drinking from
9 that morning,it was a recipe for disaster.

 

[Kevealis]

No excuse for this, no matter what happened. The screen not working was pathetic but still no excuse. The fact that a hell of a lot of Scots hate England/the English is more than likely the reason this kicked off.

Would've been great to see the police machine gun the pack of wolves in this clip. This isn't a pop at Kev, just a pop at the ****s in the clip.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7402858.stm

not justifying the riots, im explaining. you have no idea how livid rangers fans are today that our impecable record this season has been destroyed by the actions of the scum that have decided to turn up for this game. I was near what happened in this video as i tried to avoid the chaos. It was scary stuff. I can only apologise to the people of manchester.

Also, your claim about the scottish/english thing is rediculous. The rangers fan base is for the most part feircely brittish. Infact, there were thousands of english rangers fans there yesterday. Honestly, you couldnt be more wrong with that one.

 

[chrissivad]

Machester said at the start, if you dont have tickets, dont turn up.

It was only because there was so many people still turning up (booking out hotels) that they finaly caved in to put something on.

 

[Kevealis]

Machester said at the start, if you dont have tickets, dont turn up.

It was only because there was so many people still turning up (booking out hotels) that they finaly caved in to put something on.

First euro final in 36 years and its only 3hrs down the road...and they dont expect us to go? No chance. What they should've done was realised this from the start and planned how to cope better.

 

[Sbix]

Sure they could have planned it better, but there is no excuse possible for the behavior seen in that video really! Identify and charge them for their crimes!

 

[bomberH]

Also, your claim about the scottish/english thing is rediculous. The rangers fan base is for the most part feircely brittish. Infact, there were thousands of english rangers fans there yesterday. Honestly, you couldnt be more wrong with that one.

I'm not so sure mate. I've no doubt the majority of Scottish people have no problem with England, but there's something there. There has always been. Remember the home nations riots? The people in the clip probably went to get the Braveheart speech tattooed on their back and came out with the Trainspotting one instead.

My point is though, whereas it may have kicked off anywhere else if the screen had broke, the underlying (possible) hatred of the English meant that this was more likely here than any other country. Call it the 'Fuck the English' attitude maybe?

But like i say, i know it's the minority and your fans are generally good as gold.